FYI, I think that Apostle Paul hinted a Dormitory-like place for souls we Catholic called Purgatory in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-16.
Discussion
40 comments
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Emmanuel, with respect, a “hint” is nothing to base a doctrine off of. Additionally, this Scripture refers to “sleep” — not purgation or purifying. This negates the Catholic purpose of Purgatory.
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Emmanuel,I thought we already discussed the fallacy of purgatory, and that passage refers to the rapture of the church (redeemed), a doctrine the Catholic Church has denied to it’s congregations sadly.
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No he didn’t
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“Sleep” was a prominent term in the NT to mean physical death. Jesus used this term to refer to Lazarus and the little girl He raised from the dead.
It’s also the state our physical body is in while our spiritual body is immediately placed with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:8).
Our physical body sleeps, awaiting resurrection day when our physical body and our spiritual body is reunited and our physical body is made immortal.Nothing to do with purgatory.
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As I understand purgatory is supposed to be a place or state of suffering not a dormitory. That scripture does not help you at all.
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You know which religion also have Purgatory in their belief? Buddhism and Hinduism. I don’t know where Roman Catholic got this doctrine. However is it convenient during the last day we will see one unified religion with mixture of all different belief under one banner. Sadly if you believe in this, you have to start questioning your faith. Roman Catholicism is a compromised religion with many Roman pagan tradition and ritual being mixed in with Christianity. If Roman Catholicism can’t follow God’s own commandment where you shall not have an idol before me, then it failed its purpose.
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That’s not what the passage means at all.
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possibly true
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Why do catholics love to rest their hopes in purgatory when Jesus has already paid for their sins? . But remember your sins are paid only if you accept Him and only Him as your Savior and Lord and not through any mumbo jumbo intercession through Mary or saints or other wooden idols. Jesus said,
“I am the way the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6
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Are you telling me that you have no assurance of eternal life?
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did Paul mentioned “purgatory”? you’re just illusioning
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THERES NO PURGATORY THERE. THE WORD SLEEP THERE IN GREEK IS DIED. NOT PURGATORY.
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Those beliebers who died will rise first is what Paul is saying. You know where you can find all the evidence you need about Purgatory is in 1 Thes 6:1-6
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There’s no purgatory in scripture that I’m aware of, nor do I believe such is theologically correct. Believing it’s the truth, does not make it the truth, just because you and the RCC believes it’s so. I’d suggest you evaluate all the other scripturally unsound things the RCC ‘believes’ and supports, that also aren’t strongly supported scripturally…if at all, and consider that the pattern suggest most all of it is indeed false. ?♂️
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1 Thessalonians 4:14-16 refers to the ‘Paradise’ Jesus referenced on the cross when He spoke to the thief. It clearly speaks of those who are asleep, those who have died after receiving Jesus as Savior. It’s my understanding that purgatory is a place of suffering, but no one who dies as a redeemed believer suffers after they leave this life. Sorry, but I must respectfully disagree with you.
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Abraham’s bossom??parable of rich man and Lazarus..
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A doctrine that would effect every believer in such a dramatic way would be more than hinted at in one verse.
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No one is righteous not even one not even a few. It is only through Christ that we are made perfect not by our works but only by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as our savior and lord nothing less and nothing more. On judgement day, when we face God, when we have surrendered our life to Him. God will not see our filth but He will see the righteousness of Jesus in us. That is how we make it to heaven, there is no purgatory whatsoever and those who believe in this counterfeit invention by man really only shows that they haven’t really known the heart of God, that is to say they do not have a personal relationship with the Savior. They haven’t spent time getting to know Him through prayer and meditation on His word. White as snow, though my sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.
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There is nothing mentioned about purgatory or limbo in those verses. It just said that those who are dead will be changed first before those are still living.
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Also I Corinthians 3:10-15.
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Questions for Protestants:
1) Do you believe it’s possible for a believer to attain a state of sinless perfection in this mortal lifetime?
2) Do you believe there will be sin in Heaven? -
WHO INITIATED THIS DOCTRINE OF PURGATORY?
Innocent III (1198 – 1216). Most powerful of all the Popes.
Claimed to be “Vicar of Christ”, “Vicar of God”, “Supreme Sovereign over the Church and the World”.Claims the right to depose Kings and Princes and that “All things on earth and in heaven and in hell are subject to the Vicar of Christ”.
He brought the Church into Supreme control of the State. The Kings of Germany, France, England and practically all Monarchs of Europe obeyed his will. He even brought the Byzantine empire under his control. Never in history has any man exerted more power.
He ordered two Crusades.
Decreed transubstantiation ( the substance of the bread and the wine used in the sacrament is changed into the substance of the Body and the Blood of Jesus) confirmed auricular Confession (All Catholics are required to confess all their sins to a human priest, believing this is the only way to Heaven),
Declared Papal Infallibility (in virtue of the promise of Jesus to Peter, the Pope is preserved from the possibility of error),
Condemned the Magna Carta; Forbade the reading of the Bible in vernacular (native language);
ordered the extermination of Heretics; Institute the Inquisition;
Ordered the massacre of the Albigenses( a group of Bible believing Christians).
More blood was shed under his direction and of his immediate successors, than any other period of church history, except that of the Reformation in the16th and 17th Century.
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2 Corinthians 5:8
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. -
Paul did no Such things,People love to twist scripture to support their beliefs.
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?? Really??
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The Roman Catholic Church taught Purgatory, not as a “dormitory,” but as a place for sinners whose sins were not covered by Christ’s death (?!) would suffer temporary torture until their sins were fully paid for. Paul never remotely hinted at the existence of such a place. And, of course, Jesus proclaimed, “It is finished,” not “It is sorta finished”! https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm
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There are no hints in the Word of God, the bible, God’s word is concise and precise, nowhere in 1 Thes. 4:14-16 is a hint of any place, it talks about those who are dead or asleep in their graves, no waiting place, just asleep and will rise in the coming of our Lord…..
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Well, sometimes you’ve got to wonder at how off the wall Roman Catholic teachings seem sometimes, but they usually actually do have some passage that hints at their teachings.
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David is in the his Grave
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Sheol/Hades and purgatory are not the same.
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From Jamieson-Fausset-Brown:
1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if — confirmation of his statement, 1Th 4:13, that the removal of ignorance as to the sleeping believers would remove undue grief respecting them. See 1Th 4:13, “hope.” Hence it appears our hope rests on our faith (“if we believe”). “As surely as we all believe that Christ died and rose again (the very doctrine specified as taught at Thessalonica, Act 17:3), so also will God bring those laid to sleep by Jesus with Him (Jesus).” (So the order and balance of the members of the Greek sentence require us to translate). Believers are laid in sleep by Jesus, and so will be brought back from sleep with Jesus in His train when He comes. The disembodied souls are not here spoken of; the reference is to the sleeping bodies. The facts of Christ’s experience are repeated in the believer’s. He died and then rose: so believers shall die and then rise with Him. But in His case death is the term used, 1Co 15:3, 1Co 15:6, etc.; in theirs, sleep; because His death has taken for them the sting from death. The same Hand that shall raise them is that which laid them to sleep. “Laid to sleep by Jesus,” answers to “dead in Christ” (1Th 4:16). -
Jesus already paid the price for our sins if we follow him. He said It is finished. Believing in a place we get punished after death in spite of being saved is heretical.
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The Bible mentioned only two destination. Why make it three???
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Fyi, no he didn’t
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Wendy without defending purgatory, the idea that there aren’t permanent or irreversible consequences for sin even for the saved isn’t found in Scripture. See: Moses forfeiting entry to the Promised Land, Esau losing his birthright (yeah it’s debatable whether or not he’s saved), David losing his firstborn, the fate of Ananias and Sapphira, etc.
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Very heavy veiling of the eyes here. Only Jesus and the Spirit can truly open anyone’s eyes from the common misguided works-based salvation present in most religions.
Until people who believe in works understand what Grace really is, their salvation is teetering dangerously on the cliff.
My uncle died an RC and never set his life right with the Lord or with others, thinking family prayers for his soul in purgatory will save him. Such sad, extreme deception that is leading many to hell. -
” I think that Apostle Paul hinted ”
Paul-
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
2Co 3:12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:GREAT PLAINNESS OF SPEECH!
No hinting, no games, no hide and seek!
If you think a doctrine is coded, hidden, etc…, then the doctrine you seek is a false one he never gave!
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Mong Santiago
Please watch this guy. This is, at least, his second post on purgatory. there was no need for a second. ALL he cares about is pushing a non-Biblical theme, not caring that it is NOT there and not listening. So, it is just a stage, a soapbox he seeks to spread what he wants. -
Turning off comments now as the argument was already addressed
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