Hi everyone, nice to be here. Thanks for letting me join.
To help me understand your church a little better, may I ask a few questions? š
Discussion
24 comments
-
Welcome and yes, ask away!
-
Anthony, you should know that this isnāt a Church of God page and the admin has set it up so that he may have a forum for criticizing it.
-
True, it is not a fan page for the COG but is an open forum for positive or negative observations. It is a place for adults to discusses issues about the Church of God.
-
Tammy Rockwell is tha pageās Negative Nancy, I think that may be her real name…
-
You will get a rainbow of colorful answers to your questions.
-
Thanks, Charles; at this point, I’m curious as to what the Church believes about the subject of tithing. I’m a believer in giving to the needy and the poor, and of course supporting the work of the ministry where God leads. But what of tithing? Your thoughts? š
-
There have always been negative nit-pickers like you. Itās a shame modern technology is used for bad as well as good. You are treading on thin ice when you use Gods Holy Word to attack God
-
Aren’t we all on thin ice?
-
COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.
-
Charles Page COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.
>>> Offering a few answers (see next few posts)…
“Genesis 14:18-20”
>>> I find it interesting, perhaps even suspicious, that tithing teachers claim that we should tithe BECAUSE Abraham tithed, BUT NOT AS Abraham tithed. How very convenient!
If we are to tithe BECAUSE Abraham tithed, then logically, and if Abraham is to be our example concerning tithing, we should also tithe AS Abraham tithed; unless you can find a scripture that says; “Tithe because Abraham tithed, but not like him” – 1 Nonsense 3:1.
>> Here is how Abraham tithed…
1. The example of Abraham is not a normative pattern; some people claim that tithing is required because Abraham and gave a tenth to Melchizedek, and he lived before the Mosaic covenant (the Law) was in place. Such an example hardly prove tithing is for all time, however. Abrahamās gift to Melchizedek was a one-time event; there is no evidence he regularly gave God (or anyone) a tithe.
2. Abraham tithed on the spoils of war (which would be illegal under the Law, which is the tithing system, rules and procedures GOD ESTABLISHED; God did not establish a system of tithing outside of the Law of Moses, the Torah. There is no such “second tithing system” in the Old or New Testament).
3. Abraham tithed by paying 10% to a Priest, Melchizedek, and the remaining 90% he gave to a pagan King; in Abraham’s case, to the King Sodom.
4. Abraham tithed one time (no record of Abraham ever tithing before or after, and no record of him teaching Issac to tithe or anyone else…Abraham was not a tithing teacher).
5. Abraham tithed without being commanded to do so. God never held Abraham responsible for tithing, and did not tell him to do so.
6. Abraham tithed on things he didn’t own. Some of which were Lot’s property (“And he gave him tithes of all.” – Genesis 14:20).
7. And, possibly, Abraham tithed human beings taken in his rescue of his Nephew, Lot.
8. Abraham tithed directly to a Priest, NOT to a church, tithing teacher or TV Evangelist. Also, he didn’t tithe to an organization, but rather to a person; Melchizedek.
9. Abraham tithed because of a ONE TIME special event; the slaughter of the Kings upon rescuing Lot, his tithe was not a regular weekly event.
10. God gave Abraham the covenant of circumcision, yet tithing, not given by God, is held in higher priority by tithing teachers than a God-ordained covenant; the covenant with Abraham was confirmed with circumcision, not tithing.
11. Abraham tithed to a KING, Melchizedek; are we to treat pastors as KINGS and the church they oversee as a “Kingdom run by a KING?”
12. Since God NEVER called the Children of Israel to tithe based on Abraham tithing to Melchizedek (there is NO SCRIPTURE commanding the Children of Israel to tithe as Abraham did), the very Abraham who was the Father of their Nation, and HIGHLY revered; why would God instruct the New Testament Church to “tithe as Abraham did?”
>> That is “Abrahamic tithing” …AND WOULD BE ILLEGAL UNDER THE LAW, and the Law is the ONLY PLACE God has ever commanded tithing.
Tithing is not a New Testament doctrine; there is no such thing as “New Testament tithing,” or “Tithing under grace.” If tithing was required and taught in the New Testament for Christians, it would have to be clearly detailed and outlined in the terms and conditions of the New Testament like all promises and commands of the New Testament are. Tithing instructions would be clearly included in the New Testament.
No such terms, conditions or details are outlined anywhere in the New Testament.
>> Tithing teachers enjoy pulling out highly selective sections of scripture to fool their followers into handing over their “tithe” money. That is called taking scripture out of context to deceive. They love the “BECAUSE” part, they hate the “AS” part.
>> THE WORD OF GOD warns us to be careful and alert…
“That we from now on be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;” – Ephesians
AND…
>>> Answer to the “we should tithe like, or because, Abraham did” false doctrine…
1. No Apostle stated that they tithed because Abraham did.
2. No early church (as recorded in the Book of Acts and other Epistles) reported that they tithed because Abraham did.
3. No Apostle called for or instructed Christians to tithe because Abraham did.
4. No Apostle, or anyone recorded in the New Testament era, ever received a tithe coming from a New Testament church.
5. No Apostle rebuked any church or person for not tithing because Abraham did.
6. And, the results of the first church counsel did not include instructions to tithe because Abraham did; why didn’t the Apostle Peter (James speaking for Peter), after the first Church counsel, include in his instructions to the Gentile Believers to “make sure you tithe as Abraham did?…
“For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.” – Acts 15:28-29
Not one word from the Apostle Peter to tithe as Abraham did. If tithing was so important, and was to be based on “Abrahamic tithing,” why did the Apostle Peter leave it out of his instructions?
Also, Abrahamic tithing left out of this verse…
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law [i.e., tithe: Jesus said tithing was a matter of the law – Matt. 23:23]: to whom we gave no such commandment:” – Acts 15:24
7. If we are supposed to be tithing as Abraham did; why are we not to be circumcising because Abraham did? Why just tithing?
God provided Abraham the covenant confirmed with circumcision, NOT TITHING; to tithing teachers, tithing, not ordained by God, is to be the sign of the covenant between God and Abraham, which to them is held in higher priority than a God ordained covenant; the covenant with Abraham was confirmed with circumcision, not tithing.
God told Abraham to circumcise himself, his household and his slaves as an everlasting covenant in their flesh. Those who were not circumcised were to be ‘cut off’ from their people…
Genesis 17:10-14
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.”
>> We are called by God to be free will cheerful givers, NOT tithers in any form. There is no such biblical doctrine of “tithing because Abraham did.”
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
Concerning Genesis 28:20-22…
>>> The Art of Jacob Twisting…
Over the years I have heard more than my share of tithing teachers refer to Jacob, his tithing vow to God, and his alleged tithing activities, as somehow evidence that we, as Christians, should be tithing.
They will often claim that Jacob was a tither, having vowed to do so, and that tithing was the basis for Jacob’s wealth.
In reality, Jacob never tithed, we have NO record of him ever doing so. God made Jacob wealthy without, certainly before ever tithing, even if he ever did tithe. Making Jacob wealthy was simply the will of God regarding Jacob for God’s own purposes, not a result of tithing.
As they continue their usage of Jacob and his alleged tithing activities, tithing teachers will often claim that based on Jacob and Abraham, “tithing was practiced by God’s people before the Law” (the Law as given to the Children of Israel), and therefore should continue for some vague reason after the Law, while citing no Biblical reason for such a claim of “continued tithing,” or “tithing after the Law for us in the New Testament.”
Tithing teachers will often ask “where has the Bible told us to stop tithing?” The answer to that is simple; who is “us,” and why would God tell us to stop doing something He never told us to do so in the first place? The tithing requirement was on the Nation of Israel under the Law of Moses, and God never required Gentiles to tithe, neither has God required the New Testament church to tithe.
While we won’t address the issue of “tithing after the Law” for us in the New Testament in this article, other than to say that any such claim is nonsense and wholly without Biblical basis, we will examine Jacob’s vow to tithe that is held in lofty heights coming from a man who made “an impassioned promise to God” and what it actually was that Jacob had done.
First, let’s read Jacob’s promise…
“And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first. And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, So that I come again to my father’s house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God’s house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.” – Genesis 28:19-22
Clearly, Jacob’s vow was conditional; the conditions for acknowledging God as his God were as follows…
1. If (note; IF) God will be with Jacob, Jacob will receive God as his God.
2. God would have to be with him (be on Jacob’s side and with Jacob at all times).
3. Support him in the way Jacob chooses to go (God’s stamp of approvol for what ever path Jacob choose to pursue).
4. Provide for Jacob’s continual physical needs (make Jacob wealthy and free from want; it’s unlikely that Jacob would have been satisfied with rags).
5. Bring him safely back to his family in peace (take care of the problem of having to run from his brother Esau who promised to kill Jacob for stealing his Blessing and Birth Right, no consequences for Jacob’s deceptive and dishonest actions.)
As you can see, Jacob obviously believed that he was thoroughly in charge of the situation. In short; Jacob was not making any kind of vow of Godly devotion to God, to follow God at all costs, but was seeking and focusing on conditions before he would “permit God” to be his God; and God’s response to Jacob’s offer? …silence, completely ignored; God did not say one word to Jacob acknowledging the deal Jacob had altered to his advantage.
By way of analogy; it would be as if you had spoken to Jesus Christ and in your desire to be saved, said to Jesus “you get to be my Savior if you jump on my side, put your stamp of approval on my will for my life, make me rich and solve any problems I face to my satisfaction.” I’m very surprised that God didn’t tell Jacob to “take a flying leap, Jacob; if you want me to be your God, you will do exactly what I tell you to do or NO DEAL; got it junior? NO CONDITIONS!”
God’s great patience, mercy, love and grace come to mind when I think of both myself and Jacob. What is in reality God’s condition for our having the wonderful gift of Jesus Christ as our Savior? Answer; UNCONDITIONAL SURRENDER to His will and of our lives. Nothing less.
>> Yes, God made Jacob promises, and Jacob responded to those promises in typical Jacob manner by adding his own conditions, his own agenda; a few years later, while running from his brother Esau who Jacob believed was going to kill him and his family, God brought scheming Jacob (name meaning “heel catcher;” one who trips you up as you go your way) literally to his knees, and a new man was born; Israel (meaning “God contended” or “God struggle to surmount and break”). How did God do that? By crippling Jacob and forcing Jacob, now Israel, to have to trust God and walk in God’s will for his life.
“And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day. And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob’s thigh was out of joint, as he wrestled with him. And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me. And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob. And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed. And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my name? And he blessed him there. And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” – Genesis 32:24-30
>> So then, Jacob a good example of promising to tithe? Jacob the tither? Not at all; Jacob / Israel’s life had become an example of a man who God had the final say. God wasn’t interested in his tithing, but rather interested in seeing Israel born. God, in similar manner, is not interested in us tithing, but rather in us becoming an Israel; a prince who has power with God.
This is not a story of a man who was a tither, but rather a story of a man who God prevailed over in the long run, and a man God was not going to give up on. In each one of our lives, God will not give up on us either…
“All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.” – John 6:37
“Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” – Hebrews 13:5
“And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.” – Mark 10:27
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
Concerning Malachi 3:10…
Malachi 3:9-10 does not apply to us today, it was written to the Nation of Israel and the corrupt Priesthood. We can always learn about various truths and principles from any part of God’s word, but that does not imply that scripture such as Malachi 3:6-11 is directly speaking to us as Christians. Some scripture is speaking directly to us, as Christians, some is speaking indirectly to us; unless, of course, you believe we should all be building boats such as Noah did?
>>> The Malachi Mumbo Jumbo…
>> The Mumbo Jumbo; “As Christians, we are to obey Malachi and tithe!”
>> The Mumbo Jumbo UN-Jumbo’d…
How could the Book of Malachi be directly talking to New Testament Christians commanding Christians to tithe in the light of…
>> 1. Malachi makes no direct mention of the future New Testament Church as a group of people who are to tithe. Not one word.
>> 2. Malachi warns (speaking for God) that those disobeying God would face deadly curses from God. God is our Father, He does NOT curse His own Children, and we have been redeemed from the Curse of the Law, Jesus becoming a curse for us on the Cross.
>> 3. In chapter two of the Book of Malachi, Malachi makes it very clear that he is speaking to, and warning, the Levite-Priesthood of his day; Malachi 2:1 – “This commandment IS TO YOU, oh Priests.”
>> 4. Malachi states that the tithe was to be brought into the Storehouse by the Levites (remember; Malachi is addressing the Levite-Priesthood of his day); the New Testament Church is not the Storehouse; Ref.; Nehemiah 10:38 – “And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.”
>> 5. The tithing that God established, i.e., in the Torah (The Law), was the Law Malachi was writing under the authority of. The Law was, and is, the details of the Covenant between God and the People (or Nation) of Israel, though Gentiles would ultimately benefit from the Covenant (i.e.; Jesus our Savior), nowhere did God call or command Gentiles to tithe in The Law.
The mention of Gentiles makes no requirement of Gentiles to tithe (an offering is mentioned, but NOT a tithe)…
Malachi Chapter one…
“11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.”
>> 6. The tithes required of the tither must come from LITERALLY the Boarders of The Promise Land;
> Lev. 27:30, 32 “And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of THE LAND, or of the fruit of the tree, is the LORDās. It is holy to the LORD.ā¦ And concerning the tithe of the herd, or of the flock, even of whatsoever passes under the rod, the tenth shall be holy to the LORD.”
Trust me… “THE LAND” was not referring to somewhere in Brazil or your garden in upstate New York. It refers to The Promise Land given forever to the Children of Israel. THAT is where God’s tithes were to come from.
>> 7. The opening verse clearly states (Malachi 1:1); “The burden of the word of the Lord TO ISRAEL by Malachi” …NOT to the New Testament Church, “TO ISRAEL.” (By the way; The Church is not “Spiritual Israel;” that is Replacement Theology mumbo jumbo and ignorant false teaching.)
>> 8. Every rebuke in the Book of Malachi is directed to The Children of Israel, NOT “non-tithing Gentles” or the New Testament Church; examples…
> Malachi Chapter one…
“5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The Lord will be magnified from THE BORDER OF ISRAEL.
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the Lord of hosts unto you, O PRIESTS, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the Lord is contemptible.
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the Lord of hosts.”
Malachi Chapter one, verses five to eight, clearly indicate that Malachi, speaking for God, is dealing with and rebuking people of the Nation of Israel, not the New Testament Church.
> And Malachi Chapter two…
“11 JUDAH hath dealt treacherously, and an abomination is committed in Israel and in Jerusalem; for JUDAH hath profaned the holiness of the Lord which he loved, and hath married the daughter of a strange god.”
Another rebuke to the the Children of Israel, in verse 11; JUDAH. Etc., etc., etc.
Where are Gentiles or The New Testament Church rebuked for not tithing in Malachi? NOWHERE!
Israel, or the people of Israel such as Jacob and the Levites (the Priests), are refereed to over and over again as the subject and target of Malachi’s rebukes and commandments, but the GENTILES, or THE CHURCH, are NEVER rebuked, called out for not “bringing the tithe into the Storehouse,” or warned of any curses for not tithing.
> Malachi chapter two states…
“8 But ye are departed out of the way; ye have caused many to stumble at the law; ye have corrupted the covenant of Levi, saith the Lord of hosts.”
Ye who? Ye who “corrupted the covenant of Levi,” LEVI. Not the New Covenant.
>>> So, next time some tithing teacher tries to get you to “pay your tithe because Malachi tells you to,” read him or her the above Eight Facts concerning the Book of Malachi.
And, Malachi wasn’t talking to Christians when he wrote Malachi 3:8 to 12; he clearly stated that he was talking to, and rebuking, the Aaronic Priesthood of his day who were under the Old Covenant;
Malachi 2:1 “And now, O ye priests, this commandment is for you.”
And the principle here is…
Text taken out of context is a pre-text to deceptive text. Text must not be taken out of textual, historic, situational or any other context, or it is a foundation for false and deceptive doctrine.
Remember, when Malachi wrote his document, there were no chapter or verse divisions. He was addressing the Priests. And, to better understand Malachi, read Nehemiah chapter 13 to know what was going on that Malachi was talking when he mentioned “men robbing God.” (Nehemiah and Malachi were writing at the same time).
And, it wasn’t the common (non-Levite) people that were to bring the tithe into the storehouse, it was the Priest’s job to bring a “tithe of the tithe” to the storehouse…
Nehemiah 10:38 – “And the priest the son of Aaron shall be with the Levites, when the Levites take tithes: and the Levites shall bring up the tithe of the tithes unto the house of our God, to the chambers, into the treasure house.”
Numbers 18:26 – “Thus speak unto the Levites, and say unto them, When ye take of the children of Israel the tithes which I have given you from them for your inheritance, then ye shall offer up an heave offering of it for the Lord, even a tenth part of the tithe.”
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
Concerning Luke 11:42 (Matt. 23:23)…
Jesus did not tell Christians to tithe in Matt. 23:23 (or Luke 11:42-49)…
“Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.”
> In Matt. 23:23 (Luke 11:42-49)…
A. Jesus was talking to Jews who were still under the Law at that time (Jesus had NOT gone to the cross, there was NO New Testament, the Law was still enforce), we are not under the Law.
B. The tithe they paid were in spices (fruits and vegetables; i.e., mint and dill and cummin), not money.
C. The tithing Jesus referred to was “a matter of the Law;” i.e., tithing based on the Law, we are not under the Law.
D. Jesus was not teaching Christians to tithe; he was addressing the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in that they paid tithes but neglected the more important points of the Law such as faith, mercy, good judgement and Luke adds love. Jesus told them that “these things they ought to have done, and not neglect the other also.”
E. The “other” was the rest of the Law, which they were neglecting. So if we are to tithe because Jesus referred to tithing in Matt. 23:23, we would have to obey ALL of the Law.
F. There is no indication in Matt. 23:23 (Luke 11:42-49) that Jesus was calling for the future Church, Christians, to tithe.
G. If we are to tithe based on Matt. 23:23 (Luke 11:42-49), we would also be obligated to obey all of the Law (James 2:10 – “For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend on ONE POINT, he is guilty of all.”).
>>> Watch Out for that Dangerous Half Truth!
Recently I listened to a tithing teacher teaching his listeners that tithing was without a doubt a New Testament requirement. He referred to Matthew 23:23. During his teaching session, he made three points; all three were true, all three were easy to establish with scripture, and all three seemed to lead to a conclusion that could not be refuted; a Christian must tithe.
All three also led to something else; a half truth, also known as a lie. Here is what he claimed that was true, but in reality being an incomplete set of facts, resulted in a deception…
1. “Tithing was mentioned in the New Testament,” in this case, Matthew 23:23.
2. “Jesus validated tithing.”
3. “Jesus said that tithing was something that ought to be done.”
>> All three absolutely true; but combined together, and leaving out the next three facts, constitute a false doctrine.
1. Jesus clearly referred to tithing as a matter of the Law (the Law of Moses, or the Torah); we are not under the Law and are not required to tithe.
2. Jesus was talking to men, Jewish Pharisees (who were in the spice trade, and, by the way, paid their tithes in the form of spices; fruits or vegetables, as required in the Law, not any form of currency); God never called, instructed or authorized Gentiles (non Jews) to tithe.
3. Jesus had not gone to the cross yet; there was no New Testament in force, the Pharisees Jesus was talking to were still, at that time, under the Law.
> Footnote: If tithing was required and taught in the New Testament for Christians, it would have to be clearly detailed and outlined in the terms and conditions of the New Testament like all promises and commands of the New Testament are. Tithing instructions would be clearly included in the New Testament. They are not.
>>> Adding the second set of three points, it is clear to see how half truths can be used to deceive.
Many more points could be made making clear that Matthew 23:23 does not instruct Christians to tithe, but I believe you can see the dangers of coming to a conclusion based on partial or half truth, not to mention, keeping scripture in proper context, not only in textual context, but also timeline (historic) context, cultural context, situational context, etc.
>>> Half truths are whole lies!
>> Remember…
“These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.” – Acts 17:11
“Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.” – 1 John 4:1
“The simple believeth every word: but the prudent man looketh well to his going.” – Proverbs 14:15
“Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.” – 1 Corinthians 14:29
“Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.” – 1 Thessalonians 5:21
“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.” – Proverbs 14:12
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
“Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.” – 1 Corinthians 16:2
>>> This verse says nothing about tithing, and in no way instructs a Christian to tithe, or even give on a regular basis (though there is nothing wrong with doing so to help other people; the heart of every Christian should want to do so). It is referring to, when read in proper context, a ONE TIME collection Paul was taking up to help the Saints in Jerusalem. Paul was asking the Church in Corinth to take up the collection in an organized manner. Paul never intended it to be a permanent taking up of money.
-
Anthony Todd Thanks for your comments feel free to ask question concerning the Church of God.
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
Concerning 2 Corinthians 9:6-9
“But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.”
Yes, in fact, the Bible clearly instructs Christians to NOT tithe…
II Corinthians 9:7 tells us “Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; NOT grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.” Notice the word NOT, which means NO, DO NOT DO. No to what? No to giving under necessity or compulsion or any “10% beginning.”
Tithing was necessary and compulsory, it was LAW, laws are compulsory. We are told NOT to give under compulsion. That, along with many other New Testament scriptures such as Jesus teaching “freely give, because you have freely received.”
-
Charles Page RE: “COG on Tithing and giving. Genesis 14:18-20; 28:20-22; Malachi 3:10; Luke 11:42 ; 1 Corinthians 16:2 ; 2 Corinthians 9:6-9 ; Hebrews 7:1-21.”
Concerning Hebrews 7:1-21…
>>> Hebrews Chapter 7, Psalm 110:4 and Genesis 14…
> How anyone can read Hebrews Chapter Seven and conclude that it is instructions to Christians to “tithe” is beyond me! It clearly states the following…
1. Abram tithed to Melchizedek one time (Genesis 14), no record of Abram ever tithing before or after tithing to Melchizedek.
2. Because Abram tithed to Melchizedek, being in the loins of Abram, the Tribe of Levi also tithed to Melchizedek one time (Hebrews 7:9-10), which…
3. Proved, by paying tithes to Melchizedek that Melchizedek and his Priestly Order was superior to, and would replace, the Levite priests who die; Melchizedek is revealed as a Priest forever and will never end, never die (“And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth. – Hewbrews 7:8), and therefore…
4. Melchizedek is a Priest who lives forever and will never die, he is not mortal, therefore his Priestly order will never end, therefore…
5. Melchizedek will, and has, replaced the now defunct Levite priesthood established by the Law, which, along with the commandments to tithe to the Levies, has ended because they are the commandants of the Law which includes tithing, is this to us…
6. “Annulled, unprofitable (useless) and weak…”
“For there is verily an annulment of the previous commandment [the Law] because of the weakness and uselessness thereof.” – Hebrews 7:18
(International Standard Version) – “Indeed, because it was weak and ineffective, the former [i.e., now ended] commandment has been annulled,” – Hebrews 7:18
>> We are no longer under the law, including the Law to surrender tithes…
“For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.” – Romans 10:4
“For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.” – Romans 6:14
“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law [i.e., tithe: Jesus said tithing was a matter of the law – Matt. 23:23]: to whom we gave no such commandment:” – Acts 15:24
7. The bottom line is this; the Priesthood of the Levites, who the Law required tithing to, no longer exists as Priests, and therefore no longer must be tithed to, which said Levite Priesthood was a physical Priesthood established by the Law, the Law of the flesh, a Priesthood of the mortal flesh needing the fleshly support of tithing, replaced by the spiritual self sufficient eternally existing Priesthood of Melchizedek who does not need to collect a tithe to live…
“For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:” – Romans 8:3″
But, the Priesthood of Melchizedek is not of the flesh and is therefore eternal and greater than that of the Levite Priest…
“Who is made, not after the law of a carnal (or law of the flesh) commandment, but after the power of an endless life.” – Hebrews 7:16
“And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.” – Hebrews 7:7
Hebrews chapter 7 was proving to the Jews that Jesus was, and is, the Messiah, because He is a Priest after the higher eternal Order of Melchizedek. The unbelieving Jews claimed that Jesus could not be the Messiah because coming from the tribe of Judah, who were not Priests, “Jesus was not, and could not be, a priest or the Messiah.”
“For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.” – Hebrews 7:14
>> The unbelieving Jews were wrong, Jesus can be a Priest…
Hebrews chapter seven perfectly and clearly demonstrates that Jesus The Christ qualifies as the Messiah because, among other reasons, being a Priest after the Order of Melchizedek. The Jews could not deny what Psalm 110:4 said, and what the narrative of Genesis 14 clearly states. The writer of Hebrews 7 uses both Genesis 14 and Psalm 110:4 to prove Jesus as Eternal Priest and therefore qualifies as The Messiah.
Hebrews 7 (and the entire Book of Hebrews) was clearly establishing Jesus Christ as the eternal Priest of Melchizedek as stated in this Psalm speaking of Jesus Christ…
“The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” – Psalm 110:4
>>> Biblical conclusion; tithing, a commandment of the Law, is OVER; there is NO ONE to tithe to, no Priesthood in need of a tithe. The tithe was established to support and sustain the mortal Levitcal Priesthood in the flesh; do you really believe that Jesus Christ, GOD IN THE FLESH, needs your tithe, as established by God as fruits, vegetables and clean livestock, to remain alive and sustained? I think not! …He ever lives!
“For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity [will die]; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.” – Hebrews 7:28
> Question; maketh the Son what? Answer; an eternal Priest!
-
>>> The Phrase “without all contradiction”…
The writer of the Book of Hebrews was moved by the Holy Spirit to employ the uncompromising phrase of “without all contradiction” as his way of describing the truth that Melchizedek was eternal and greater than Abraham and the Levites who were lessor and mortal.
The phrase “without all contradiction” means the truth explained in Hebrews Seven is firmly established, cannot be argued against, is unimpeachable, and requires no further argument to be documented and established as fact.
Since the ultimate purpose (whether Abraham knew it or not) of Abraham’s one time tithe to Melchizedek achieved it’s goal, that of becoming a key factor of establishing the superiority of the Priestly order of Melchizedek, and was achieved by Abraham himself upon his actual tithe to Melchizedek; why would tithing teachers promote the false concept of us, as Christians, following the so called example of “Abrahamic tithing?” Are we, as Christians, also to tithe to Melchizedek to prove we are inferior to Melchizedek? Remember, the writer of Hebrews has already established the superiority of Melchizedek citing Abraham and Levi tithing to him.
My point is that the record in Genesis 14 of Abraham tithing had a specific purpose; that of providing the writer of Hebrews a factual occurrence of Abraham’s tithe, later used as facts in his presentation. The writer of Hebrews had three key facts that were used to make his point…
>> 1. By recorded human action – “And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he [Abraham] gave him [Melchizedek] tithes of all.” – Genesis 14:20
>> 2. By divine declaration – “The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.” – Psalm 110:4
Resulting in…
>> 3. By explanation and rational argument – “And without all contradiction the less [Abraham / Levites] is blessed of the better [Melchizedek].” “It is beyond dispute that the inferior is blessed by the superior.”- Hebrews 7:7
The demonstration has been accomplished by the method God choose to do so (points 1, 2 and 3 above), it is, as we say “a done deal,” it does not need to be further established (unless, of course, you think God didn’t do a very good job at it in the first place), therefore there is no further reason to “tithe as Abraham did.” For what purpose would we do so? If we “tithe as Abraham did,” is God going to use our tithing to Melchizedek to further establish the superiority of Melchizedek over and over again citing our “Abrahamic tithing?” Such an idea is false and obvious stupidity.
God does NOT require us, nor does He need us, to engage in some kind of unbiblical “Abrahamic tithing” to prove anything. Tithing because Abraham did would be useless and not commanded by God. Nowhere does God tell us to tithe as Abraham did.
God established Melchizedek as a Priest that replaces the Levites, and one that will live forever as a Priest of the Most High God.
“And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.” – Hebrews 7:8
God is finished with establishing that fact, He does not need us to establish it again. God is not calling you to “tithe as Abraham did.” Claiming so is as foolish as claiming that Jesus Christ must be crucified over and over again to pay the price for our sins.
>>> Another important point…
Also, if you will notice, Issac and Jacob/Israel were not named in the line up of tithers mentioned in Hebrews 7:9…
“And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.”
The line of tithers goes from Abraham to his great grandson, Levi, leaving out Issac and Jacob/Israel. Why? Because neither Issac and Jacob/Israel represented tithers or tithing, we have no record either one of them ever tithing. In the case of Abraham and Levi, both were tithers; Abraham to Melchizedek (Genesis 14:20), Levites to Levite Priests who received a tithe of the tithe for the Temple from the non-priest Levites (Nehemiah 10:38).
I find it interesting that the Church is also NOT listed as having anything to do with tithing by including the New Testament Church as being in the loins of Abraham as tithers. Something to think about.
The only system of tithing God has ever established and instructed a group of people to engage in is found in the Law (The Torah), and that singular tithing system has been annuled (as is tithing with it) being, as God declared, one of “weakness and unprofitableness…”
“For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment [the Law] going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.” – Hebrews 7:18
>> Or…
“For, on the one hand, there is a setting aside of a former commandment because of its weakness and uselessness.” – Hebrews 7:18
>> Therefore…
“For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.” – Hebrews 7:19
>> Or…
“(for the Law made nothing perfect), and on the other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.” – Hebrews 7:19
>> We are called by God to be free will cheerful givers, NOT tithers in any form.
-
Charles Page, please forgive for posting as much as I did, I have addressed these tithing claims many times before. I would be very interested in your thoughts concerning what I posted. š
-
I am in agreement with you. God wants cheerful givers who give ungrudgingly!
-
My biggest complaint are ministries who will not disclose financial information (in accordance with IRS rulings)
-
Isn’t it something for someone to come on this forum pretending to be “curious” as to what the Church of God teaches and then asks a “loaded” question (that he already knew the answer to) and had spent a considerable amount of time preparing to debate (trying to refute) — which is evidenced by his large volume of arguments (wresting/twisting many Scriptures to suit his will)? I find the very preface of this post and the question asked by the presenter of it to be quite insincere; and therefore, lacks my respect!
-
Danny O. Pryor
RE: ” Isn’t it something for someone to come on this forum pretending to be “curious” as to what the Church of God teaches and then asks a “loaded” question (that he already knew the answer to) and had spent a considerable amount of time preparing to debate (trying to refute) — which is evidenced by his large volume of arguments (wresting/twisting many Scriptures to suit his will)? I find the very preface of this post and the question asked by the presenter of it to be quite insincere; and therefore, lacks my respect!
>>> That is a very negative way of looking at things. I very respectively asked a question, offered my point of view and asked for others to do the same. A rather civil way of doing things, as far as I can tell.
Do you have your thoughts on tithing? If so, I would love to hear them. If I am twisting scripture, please point out where.
I await your answer.
-
Open forum!!!
Comments