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Hey guys, I am a Christian in seminary, and someone…

5 years ago • May 28, 2021 • by ourCOG

Hey guys, I am a Christian in seminary, and someone who likes apologetics.
There is one question that has bothered me though and I am hoping someone can point me towards work done in this area.

The question of theodicy has often been answered by an appeal to God’s justice. If there was no “hell” then Hitler will have escaped from what he truly deserves, for example.

However, from the classic understanding of hell, even those Jews, who were killed in such a brutal evil way, if they did not know Christ would also share the same fate.

I know other theories about hell that would skirt this issue and am not particularly interested in those, as I am trying to get a certain answer from a certain position.

Categories: #ourCOG

Discussion

36 comments

  1. Leon Botha says:
    April 23, 2020 at 4:49 am

    Correct…all who know not Christ will share this fate…look at it from this angle..God created hell…it belongs to Him….and all who have rejected Christ and have not recieved the salvation He brings will be cast into hell…no matter by which means they have succombed in this life

    Reply
  2. Leon Botha says:
    April 23, 2020 at 4:51 am

    There are many theories and hypothese as to why the jews had been massacred by hitler…but it actually makes no difference …if they were orthodox jews and believed not in the Son…both murdered and murderer share in the same fate

    Reply
  3. Leon Botha says:
    April 23, 2020 at 4:53 am

    They are not counted as martyres because they do not fulfill the criteria…they were not persecuted for theur faith in Jesus Christ

    Reply
  4. Mark Celio says:
    April 23, 2020 at 6:16 am

    Just believe the Bible, and know that God is JUST, he is always right, he always does what is right. Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.

    Reply
  5. Paul Swan says:
    April 23, 2020 at 6:48 am

    Someone put it this way and it helped me: “Hell will be full of people who think that they ought to be in heaven, and heaven will be full of people who know that they ought to be in hell.” Apart from grace through faith in God’s unique Son, we are all doomed and rightfully so. Our only “hope is built on nothing less than Jesus’ blood and righteousness…”

    Reply
  6. Lorna Isaacs says:
    April 23, 2020 at 7:00 am

    Paul I love your comment.

    Reply
  7. Brad Jones says:
    April 23, 2020 at 7:35 am

    Not just Hitler and those like him, but all mankind justly deserves hell. That Christ should save any displays his tremendous mercy. That he should save ME blows my mind.

    Reply
  8. Tammie Edwards says:
    April 23, 2020 at 7:39 am

    God is a God of justice. He alone knows the heart of mankind. The reason that Lucifer was cast out of Heaven was because his heart was selfish against God. Satan wanted God’s lordship rather than to submit to it. There is much evidence in the Bible about Hell. A good place to start is in Numbers with the story of Korah and his followers.

    Reply
  9. Justin Mirza says:
    April 23, 2020 at 8:19 am

    Romans 2.6-14. Revelation 20. 15. Do not Take în your hand judgement of people who do not know Christ. You preach Christ. 1Corintians2.5.

    Reply
  10. Tyrone Pruitt-Sanders says:
    April 23, 2020 at 9:03 am

    What is GOD’S belongs to HIM. What is man’s belongs to him. Dont overthink the things that you dont understand. Remember, our belief is one of Faith (Heb. 11:1) and not one of being able to explain everything. If you get discernment friend m the Spirit, good. If not, thats okay. To each is a different level of Faith. Apologetics is being able to explain what is revealed to us and allowing God to reveal everything else.

    Reply
  11. Billy Leishman says:
    April 23, 2020 at 10:40 am

    Everyone is a natural sinner on the road to Hell by default from the start. Hell is a just separation from the perfection of God. Everyone deserves Hell. Whether you were raped and killed by Nazis in this life or not. Doesn’t change that you never DESERVED eternal relationship with God to begin with. It’s only by His grace that He offers us this opportunity to escape our default path.
    If I commit a crime, but some unrelated individual comes up and punches me in the face, my crimes are not magically absolved because he punched me. I’m still guilty and accountable for my own sins.

    Reply
  12. Jill Schiewe says:
    April 23, 2020 at 11:11 am

    We are all sinners and deserving of Hell. If being in a concentration camp took away our sin—or atoned—then why should Christ have died? We would be able to earn our salvation in some way by suffering here. But we tend to not understand how sinful and unholy and undeserving of being in God’s presence we are. Part of that is comparing ourselves with each other. That is why we have a Righteous Judge. We can never be a more righteous or fair judge than God. He is good—even in judgement.
    We can trust Him that Hitler will be judged appropriately. We can trust Him that those in hell are because of their own sin and no one else’s.

    Reply
  13. Bill Sewell says:
    April 23, 2020 at 1:49 pm

    I believe Jesus is righteous and that yes He is the only way to God. I believe He therefore gets to decide. Can’t God show mercy to who He wishes?

    Reply
  14. Steve Davies says:
    April 23, 2020 at 5:09 pm

    All who are born of Adam are sinners.
    All who are born of the last Adam are forgiven sinners.

    Reply
  15. Timothy Hutson says:
    April 23, 2020 at 6:32 pm

    The real answer starts in genesis. Remember God tells the serpent, i will cause enmity between the woman’s seed and the serpents seed. 2 things here. God just told the serpent about the virgin birth. Secondly and often over looked, God is saying the serpent has seed or decendants. Now we can take a closer look at the wheat and the tares. Jesus was being a little more literal than most people think. We also know from John 3:16 God sent His Son so that salvation could be offered to the world. Yet Jesus said He came to seek and save that which was lost. You don’t lose what you never had. So the whole heaven and he’ll argument becomes who are you?

    I am a construction manager. I was call by a landlord because of damage to her property. When I got there I found deep ruts in a small patch of wheat. The truck had got stuck in soft soil and did considerable damage. After I reviewed the damage I asked what the value of the wheat was so we could compensate her. She replied, oh that wheat is worthless. Can’t be eaten not anything you can do with it. Since I am not a farmer I did now see any difference. So it is now. Only God amd His angels knows the difference between the wheat and the tares.

    It is a question of who you are.

    Reply
  16. Aldrich Janelle says:
    April 23, 2020 at 7:15 pm

    What is your question?

    Reply
  17. Caleb Jackson says:
    April 23, 2020 at 7:46 pm

    I’m actually writing a book about the problem of evil, and I have a chapter about the problem of hell.

    One could hold to universalism,and argue that hell is a temporary place to build up our souls to accept Christ.I don’t think I would take that route, but I lean more towards annihilationism.

    The main philosophical reason is twofold: 1) if God is the necessary being of existence, nothing can exist without him. But hell is the absence of God according to 2 These. 1:9.so I don’t think it is possible to be in the absence of God and still exist. Thus, being in the absence of God may mean that you no longer can exist. The verses that refer to hell as Eternal could mean Eternal in consequence, ie permanent.

    The second philosophical reason is the form of Justice. There are different kinds of Justice,, such as retributive and rehabilitative. I don’t think that retributive Justice makes any sense, as there’s no reason to punishment just for the sake of punishing them, it does not accomplish anything. You could argue hell is meant to rehabilitate us, but that raises the question post mortem salvation. So that leaves us with prevention or consequentialist Justice, we should hold that hell is meant to stop us from sinning, similar to a jail cell.but this is not seem to be the case, because people continue to hate God and sin while in hell. So I don’t think he’ll can simply be a prevention of sin.

    In fact, if hell is eternal,then God would be placing people in a condition to which they want send for all of eternity. He would be increasing the quantity of sins, which does not seem within his character.

    So, to me most logical conclusion is that God does not want to increase the frequency of sin, but will just wipe it out completely

    Reply
  18. Gwendolyn Benthul says:
    April 23, 2020 at 11:05 pm

    We are not given much details on Heaven or Hell but we are told that we were created in God’s image. As image bearers we recognize different levels of sin regardless of our religious beliefs and we judge based on the level of the atrocity. Much like we’re told in the Torah we punish crimes by fine up to death. Maybe that’s because we were created that way and in His image. We judge on a case by case basis and I believe God does too and that’s why we do that ourselves.

    Reply
  19. Johnathon Morris says:
    April 24, 2020 at 1:14 am

    First God made Hell for the devil and his angels. People who go to hell follow the ways of the devil, the world, and the flesh, anyway that is not of God. All will go to Hell if they do not repent and trust in Christ. The Word of God says that when Jesus died He first entered Abrahams bussom, (paradise) which is a place near Hell but is is not hell, and He ministered to them. So they even too had an opportunity to accept Jesus or not. Good question.

    Reply
  20. Benjamin Strong says:
    April 24, 2020 at 1:47 am

    Most people are giving crappy answers

    But they all suck
    Options are like belly buttons and most of them are fuzzy

    But
    the idea of hell exists
    It’s New Testament
    Even the term of gnashing of teeth is mentioned
    So hell is real

    Jews didn’t believe
    And when I was in theology
    They called it sheole
    But the theory is that the afterlife actually “changed”

    No one can go to heaven without Jesus

    Hence that means that no one ever did go to heaven
    Other than possibly Elijah and Enoch

    But the good went to
    “Abrahams bussem”
    While the wicked went to sheole… possibly? I
    Mean this is stuff
    That kinda matters but not really

    When Jesus came and set the captives free from the afterlife

    Now
    We all have the choice to follow Christ

    So it’s not “the bad are punished” and we need to make a list and keep trying to not break anything

    It’s we choose God (Christ)
    Or we don’t
    And Christ I love, compassion, and understanding
    Not about who lived their whole life without jay walking or getting a ticket ?

    Hence
    It answers the question can someone who never hears the about Jesus go to heaven
    Well
    Everyone in the Old Testament was presented with Christ Jesus and the opportunity to live a life abundantly loved by the Holy creator

    Why wouldn’t a Holy compassionate creator not do the same for the others
    Until they get a chance
    To really get a choice

    Jesus isn’t someone to trick us into not believing
    Therefore
    If they didn’t actually get to choose him or not he will make it clear

    You might of never become a sail boat captain ?‍✈️ because you never lived by the ocean
    But
    God isn’t going to fail you
    He will
    Bring the ocean to you
    Even if it’s after the grave

    No one really knows what happens the instant we die.
    And don’t pretend you do
    Gods amazing
    And a just judge
    And if that means that Hell is simply being told of your sins, being punished and going out of existence before knowing about the great afterlife known as heaven you
    Will miss

    Who knows

    Seventh day Adventist’s don’t believe in HEll

    Or is it more like catholic
    You are purged of your sins
    Where time is unexistant
    Where it may feel as a million years
    But only nano seconds in time

    Seek Christ
    Ask for forgiveness
    Help others so they can help others

    This is the fullness of the law
    In doing this
    Not worrying about tomorrow
    And helping our community grow into a community not having homelessness and poverty but that everyone is helped out of their situation
    Rather than raising the rent to kick them
    Out

    Until we stop ? fighting our systematic differences
    And the dogma we follow
    And decide to die to ourselves
    And change our country and world

    We will only ever
    Be fighting each other
    And continue to loose more followers
    Only to a new society
    That wants to be helped
    But since the
    Church calls them lazy sinners

    They cry to the government
    And
    Now
    They force your doors closed
    And shut your Bible
    Become now a new god of the land

    Marx will take over
    If the churches don’t love before judging

    Reply
  21. Sinatra Bigglesworth III says:
    April 24, 2020 at 2:48 am

    What’s the certain question?

    Reply
  22. Dane Davenport says:
    April 24, 2020 at 4:39 am

    If there is no hell, there is no justice, there is no morality. Hitler “deserves” neither good or bad because without hell neither exist.

    Reply
  23. Kenny Wong says:
    April 24, 2020 at 4:20 pm

    Don‘t worry too much about those Jews. No one asks to put them to hell if they remain loyal to God and His commandments. What worth worrying is rather there are less than 1/3 today‘s Jews are loyal to God to abide by His Law to the Jews.

    Reply
  24. David Funk says:
    April 24, 2020 at 4:44 pm

    Francis Chan might have a book for you called erasing hell. Not sure of your question but if its about the Jews of say it depends on how much of the world they observed. I don’t believe adult Jews were saved but a case could be made for children that were not old enough to understand or comprehend a creator God. This would be Gods mercy and we see signs of it in cases like David’s child that died. Not a strong case but a case for Gods mercy on the innocent.

    Reply
  25. Clarissa Berry says:
    April 24, 2020 at 4:51 pm

    I love this question!
    I believe that there is time between death and judgement, a waiting place, where spirits wait until the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ when all will be resurrected. Here in the waiting place, all people who did not have a chance to hear about and accept Jesus Christ will have an opportunity there! 1 Peter 4:6 “For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit”
    I believe in a just God, one who doesn’t condemn children who never had real chance to except Jesus Christ.
    I also believe we are judged for more then just acceptance of Jesus Christ, we need to do something about it. Eccl 12:14 “For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
    So, short answer, everyone has a second chance after they die! And we are judged for how we act on with the truth we are given both here and after this life!

    Reply
  26. Markell Jefferson says:
    April 24, 2020 at 7:48 pm

    No one can say for sure what hell is or the nature of it. Almost every description of it is ambiguous and leaves room for interpretation especially in the original languages. I.e. Gehenna and Sheol. It can be argued from multiple verses that the majority of the OT authors believed there was no afterlife. Psalms 115:15-17, Ecc 9:5

    The best thing you can do is trust that you know God’s nature and he will be just with whatever decision he makes

    Reply
  27. Smithm Smith says:
    April 24, 2020 at 8:36 pm

    Hudson, we need you, a student of theology, in our discussion group FaultLine, where Christians & non-Christians get to discuss. Please, by all means, join. It’s free, and worth your time. Join!

    https://www.facebook.com/groups/460063527956933/

    Reply
  28. Colin Spotswood says:
    April 25, 2020 at 8:42 am

    God overlooks our ignorance. If those Jews were obedient to God as they knew Him, then God asks for no more,

    Reply
  29. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:23 am
    Reply
  30. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:24 am
    Reply
  31. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:24 am
    Reply
  32. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:24 am
    Reply
  33. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:24 am
    Reply
  34. Hudson Ensz says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:29 am

    Nakai Cox
    Memes aren’t very helpful.
    The basest form of discussion.

    Reply
  35. Nakai Cox says:
    April 25, 2020 at 11:31 am

    What else is new in the world

    Reply
  36. Jeffrey Sanate Hmar says:
    April 28, 2020 at 6:13 am

    Yes, why not? Barry, you are welcome. Let us learn together what we know and believe.

    Reply

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