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God’s White Throne Judgement (WTJ) makes Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), as it is called, not only moral but also essential. The position of the Annihilationalist (Conditional Immortality—CI) in view of the WTJ, seems weak.

The WTJ of sinners at the end of time (Rev 20:11-15) has at least 4 purposes: to uncover the wickedness of sinful man (Matthew 10:26); to hold man accountable for his deeds done in the body and thus increase man’s guilt (Matthew 10:36); to punish man for his wicked deeds (Romans 2:6-9) thus vindicating God’s righteousness (Revelation 19:1-2).

At the conclusion of the WTJ the condemned soul will be standing in front of God naked in sin and guilty as hell. There will be no more goodness left in him only sin will be left. Can you imagine what this will look like? The sinner will no longer be human In the sense that we think of humanity today. They will BE sin and filled with guilt.

Guilt plays a huge role in the WTJ. When we think about guilt we associate it with sin. I mean, in the old covenant there was both a sin offering and a GUILT offering. BOTH had to be dealt with in order for the Jewish nation to stand right before God (Lev 14:12). At the WTJ the condemned soul will be exposed to be full of sin AND full of guilt. Guilt is a huge player in the WTJ because this will be the eternal fire that burns; not fire outside, but fire inside.

To me, it makes no sense why God would put the sinner through such a agonizing and horrific trial if he was just going annihilate him. It makes more sense to me if, having revealed
the sinner’s true nature, they were now left to eternally live with themselves and the creature they’ve chosen to become. Isn’t this the nature of God‘s wrath?

Why heap guilt on the sinner, I mean the weight of their sin will be unbearable, if their existence was going to be annihilated? Why not just stop at the first death and combine it with the second death and call it quits? Is the WTJ just something God wants to do to rub-it-in before he annihilates them? Annihilation doesn’t make sense to me because God‘s wrath isn’t so much annihilation as it is living with the consequences of one’s choices; a giving over to one’s sin. In hell we see the eternality of God’s wrath.

The WTJ exposes wickedness, exposes pride and places the guilt of sin squarely on the sinner. Realizing they were too proud and arrogant, they refused to listen when the Gospel was given, in fact, they will be made deftly aware of every single time they rejected the gospel. The kicker is: They did all this to themselves. It was a self-inflicted wound. How foolish they were. And now it’s too late. No more hope—ever. And to make it all quite clear, the chain that drags them into hell will be the chain of their own pride. What they thought was their ally was actually a mortal enemy.

Now the proponents of CI will tell you that there’s no indication of the immortality of the soul and scripture. I don’t know about that but what I do know is the underlying current in God’s word is unmistakably eternal condemnation and eternal punishment where God‘s wrath burns against the sinner. Doesn’t sound like extermination to me. We are cautioned to think of hell in the absolute worst terms, to be horrified by it. CI comes up short here IMO.

In light of the WTJ, ECT and not CI makes sense. Eternal Conscious Torment is the only appropriate and just punishment for the sinner’s arrogance and pride that fulfills the wrath of an eternal God.

Discussion

14 comments

  1. Ryan Wangen says:

    Sounds like an angry opinion piece with no scripture to support ECT.
    GOD is LOVE and has nothing to gain by tormenting a finite being for all eternity nor does scripture support it.
    I would encourage you to research better. Will their be torment in Sheol/Hades while awaiting the WTJ? Yes. Will it continue in the Lake of fire. No. The body AND soul will be destroyed(Matthew 10:28) at the 2nd death.(hence the term…2nd death)

  2. Ralph Edwards II says:

    Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

    Jesus told this parable for the conditionalist that he may know his view is false.

  3. Adam Koenig says:

    The text literally calls the lake of fire the second death. Death is the just punishment for sin and it is what Jesus endured in atonement.

    This op is little more than an emotional appeal.

    God’s character isn’t preserved by him torturing when he has repeatedly told us the result of rebellion would be the removal of our lives.

  4. Andy Gray says:

    That’s a bold assertion that eternal conscious torment is essential. Which verse of the Bible are you using to back up that wild claim?

    Oh, there are none? Okay then, I can just ignore this silly nonsense then. Moving on.

  5. Andy Gray says:

    Dave said: // But in the face of scripture, The character of God, and the huge evidence for the eternality of God‘s wrath ,I beg to differ with you. //

    Face of scripture? It’s you who ignores scripture. You gave me a list of about 13 references to hell in the Bible. You said they prove eternal conscious torment. But looking at them each and every one of them was a refutation of eternal conscious torment, and greater support for conditionalism. When I pointed this out to you, you didn’t show me why I was wrong, you merely declared I was wrong. Even when I press you on it, you refuse to even discuss what scripture actually says, all you want to do is tell me I’m wrong. Well SHOW IT! Of course I know you won’t be able to, because scripture doesn’t teach eternal conscious torment.

    A conditionalist can believe in the eternality of God’s wrath. If God’s wrath results in the complete death and destruction of a person, and that death is permanent and forever, then that is an eternal punishment! So that suits a conditionalist just fine!

    Character of God? In what way does that support eternal conscious torment. If anything God’s character disproves eternal conscious torment. After all, just look at the examples in the Bible. Like the flood of Noah. God was so grieved by all the sin in the world that he killed and destroyed all of it save a few. No amount of tormenting the evildoers would suffice, because then the sin and evil would still exist! Instead we see that he utterly destroyed it, removing it from the earth. That serves as an example of what God’s judgement is like, and it shows that it is not eternal conscious torment.

    Everything about the eternal conscious torment view is thoroughly refuted by scripture because scripture teaches conditional immortality repeatedly and consistently.

    See this post for a closer look at the scriptures Dave said teach ECT: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1899074057079810/?post_id=2633030043684204&comment_id=2633271076993434&reply_comment_id=2633352286985313&__cft__%5B0%5D=AZW3qkewhLDoDsA0PoJnCt9YO6O6Idcu6NuZVKCxqBrq8pHeiOTiDO-Z0zwrH_f-1hPFoYI5S5npVwBl7wYIN443MdOzsyJfoK9f4RqqQLh3ECglVqMjLWRV6BZxNeoEhDfSt7UhEojca–NNITxmdHP&__tn__=R%5D-R

  6. Ken Matey says:

    So you don’t think Ted Bundy should have had a trial just because he got the death penalty? But if he had received a sentencing of 50 years of torture then a trial would’ve been appropriate?

    God is a just God. He will always prove His holiness and justice prior to the carrying out of the punishment.

    Law established
    Trial
    Sentencing
    Punishment

  7. Ralph Edwards II says:

    I guess I could possibly be opening up a can of worms here by commenting with all the verses that refer to eternal punishment but i can assure you it’s not the same “worms” as we see referred too in Mark and Isaiah.

    Jude 7 As Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

    Obadiah 1:15-16 For the day of the LORD upon all the nations is near; As you have done, it shall be done to you; Your reprisal shall return upon your own head. For as you drank on my holy mountain, So shall all the nations drink continually; Yes, they shall drink, and swallow,
    And they shall be as though they had never been.

    Malachi 4:4-5 But everyone shall sit under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid; for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken. For all people walk each in the name of his god, but we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.

    Daniel 12:2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt.

    Isaiah 66:22-24 For as the new heavens and the new earth that I make shall remain before me, says the LORD, so shall your offspring and your name remain. From new moon to new moon,
    and from Sabbath to Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before me, declares the LORD. And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.

    Matthew 18:9 It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into the hell of fire.

    Matthew 25:46 Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

    Mark 9:42-48 Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him if a great millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea. And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire. And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame than with two feet to be thrown into hell. And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into hell, where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.

    2 Thessalonians 1:9-10 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

    Jude 13 These people are wild waves of the sea, casting up the foam of their own shame; wandering stars, for whom the gloom of utter darkness has been reserved forever.

    Revelation 14:9-11 If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

    Revelation 20:10;14-15 And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. . . . Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    Luke 16:19-31 Luke 16:19-31 There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. But there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, full of sores, who was laid at his gate, desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table. Moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried. And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things; but now he is comforted and you are tormented. And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed, so that those who want to pass from here to you cannot, nor can those from there pass to us. Then he said, ‘I beg you therefore, father, that you would send him to my father’s house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment. Abraham said to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, ‘No, father Abraham; but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent. But he said to him, ‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.

  8. George Banagis says:

    It should be clear that if the “eternal life” of Mat. 25:41 is really the “life of the ages”, then the “eternal punishment” is likewise an age-lasting correction. The Diaglott says, “Depart from Me, you cursed ones, into that aionian fire… and these shall go away into a cutting-off age lasting.” The Bible in Modern English by Farrar Fenton reads, “And these He will dismiss into a LONG CORRECTION.” Rotherham’s New Testament says, “These shall go away into age-abiding correction.” Young’s Literal translation renders, “And these shall go away to punishment age-during.”

  9. Andy Gray says:

    Dane Davenport has said to me that heaps of scriptures prove eternal conscious torment. I’ve interacted with all of them, yet Dane refuses to do so yet assures me that I’m wrong, yet seems unable or unwilling to show how.

    Take for example Matthew 13. Dane says the truth of eternal conscious torment (ECT) is so obvious in that portion of scripture that I must be blind. I’ve asked him to show me where it says anything about ECT but he refuses to do so, claiming that if he did I would stumble over it. yeah right.

    He has not interacted with my reasoning on this post: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1899074057079810/?post_id=2628611724126036&comment_id=2633395580314317&__cft__%5B0%5D=AZW1Y-id0xQES8BZx5k0nILu8jsIcnv9Uz7fKIosJ6PkDgaW-O67UBbq9zDFKPe6r8dTZgoPIPYeR-wvAQzEXRwbwcMyIbqwdD8zM50btj5MuON8vcYjNWhkVlgTn0nQPQZqoxsg61I64S2eYPNgERCRU7GyYOF7M-GDTS9PXEQVKw&__tn__=R%5D-R

    Nor this one: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1899074057079810/?post_id=2633030043684204&comment_id=2633271076993434&reply_comment_id=2633352286985313&__cft__%5B0%5D=AZWUCJsKiFPKnK8cFl-jKbt301DwrPdt6B4IHGct0z4uP1WtYlGNTvPCqrGHW9hVKc1MMpdqjZ6yHjuQ6vHg1rao1Hw8fRRshvpShCNfk2CYIFGkQRfqLq3cCg7QdVmmQz3-qmXOI8d_BjE6zpiwo6q1&__tn__=R%5D-R

    Nor this one:
    https://www.facebook.com/groups/1899074057079810/?post_id=2633030043684204&comment_id=2633271076993434&reply_comment_id=2633359613651247&__cft__%5B0%5D=AZWUCJsKiFPKnK8cFl-jKbt301DwrPdt6B4IHGct0z4uP1WtYlGNTvPCqrGHW9hVKc1MMpdqjZ6yHjuQ6vHg1rao1Hw8fRRshvpShCNfk2CYIFGkQRfqLq3cCg7QdVmmQz3-qmXOI8d_BjE6zpiwo6q1&__tn__=R%5D-R

    All you said was “I don’t know if you’re doing this on purpose or not but you’re totally missing the point on the concept of “eternal“ and “unquenchable“ aspects of God‘s wrath.”

    Well that’s not interacting with scripture, that’s just stating your opinion as fact. Well SHOW IT. But you and I both know you can’t and wont, because we both know scripture does not teach eternal conscious torment for the unsaved. Certainly none of the verses you quoted teach it! In fact, most of them directly refute it!

    Well, I’m challenging you again. above are the links to where I’ve interacted with your supposed proofs of ECT, even though they are really refutations of it. You’ve declared I’m wrong, but you’ve never shown it.

    Instead of trying to pass off your own biased opinions as if they were fact, how about you actually engage with what scripture has to say? There’s the links! Go ahead! Let’s engage with what scripture has to say. Or are you afraid scripture might say something you don’t want it to say? It seems that way to me.

  10. William Tanksley Jr. says:

    //A problem with Annihilation view is it neither takes God’s holiness nor His infinite personhood seriously. Unatoned and repented sin is an infinite offense against an infinitely holy God. The only way the unrepentant sinner can pay for the offense of his/her sin is to be judged eternally.//

    Even granting ALL of the presuppositions of this argument, he’s merely presuming that the purpose of final punishment is to make the sinner pay for his sin. If God is actually of infinite value, the sinner CANNOT pay for his sin. Simply saying “he’ll be in torment forever” is ignoring the fact that no amount of this torment will ever actually pay for the sin!

    So why does God have to do something that has NO EFFECT?

    It would make more sense to propose that because the person cannot pay for their sin, _therefore_ God will not _care_ about them paying for their sin. Their sin has permanently contaminated them, and cannot be cleaned. The damage they’ve done can be repaid to others (since God can do anything for people who repent), but for them there is no repayment.

    The only thing left to do for a holy God is to completely obliterate the unholiness, to remove it forever from creation.

  11. William Tanksley Jr. says:

    //God’s White Throne Judgement (WTJ) makes Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT), as it is called, not only moral but also essential.//

    The amazing thing about the OP’s argument is that it starts with a completely rubbish claim — because the only verse in the Bible that explicitly mentions “torment forever” comes just _before_ the Great White Throne.

    How can what happens _before_ the GWT, and only to 3 figures which never come before the GWT, be caused and made essential by the GWT? The two events — the GWT and the throwing of Satan into the LoF — happen backward from what anyone would expect using the OP’s argument.

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  13. ARTIMIOS BUDIER says:

    Before we were slaves of sin and thanks to our Father GOD, the son Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit
    * – Thanks to the Father for sending his son Jesus Christ as humanity’s ransom;
    * – Thanks to the Son he gave his life for sinners
    * – Thanks to the Spirit for revealing the truth and guiding us.
    * – Now we are free because Christ made us free. Galatians. 5: 1 Stand firm in the freedom with which Christ made us free.