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Here’s an argument proposed by David Bently Hart against eternal…

5 years ago • May 21, 2021 • by ourCOG

Here’s an argument proposed by David Bently Hart against eternal rejection of God (hell)

1. Our free actions are based on our desires.
2. All desires are rooted in goodness ultimately. It is the distortion of goodness that leads to sin. No one is evil for the sake of being evil. Every evil act is based on a misunderstanding of goodness (for example premarital sex is a misunderstanding of the goodness intended for marital sex)
3. God is the source of all goodness.
4. Therefore, all desires are rooted in God whether knowingly or unknowingly.
5. Therefore, once all ignorance is erased, one cannot freely reject God for eternity, as there would be no motive. All motives have to be grounded in God’s goodness.
6. Therefore, eternal rejection of God is incoherent.

For those who want more clarification, here is a video of him explaining the argument. Skip to 38:41 for the relevant portion, which ends around 48:56

Is this a good argument? Is there an adequate rebuttal?

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Discussion

39 comments

  1. John Mwiti says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:23 pm

    Arguments supported by Bible referencing,can fully contribute faith based goodness and realities. Without that,arguments can go the direction of maybe disciplines of study,only for curiosity and not way of living.

    Reply
  2. Laura L. Beery says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:23 pm

    All of God’s motives have to be grounded in his HOLINESS!

    Reply
  3. David Casey Hamilton says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:26 pm

    Your view of God’s holiness is skewed.

    Reply
  4. John Balich says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:28 pm

    im sorry………this is even close to the mark……………bad assumptions lead to bad results

    Reply
  5. Caleb Backholm says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:43 pm

    Plausible on first reading. But I don’t think eternal rejection of God ever happens. What does that even mean? It’s always in the present

    Reply
  6. Larnz Mayfeel says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:50 pm

    I am currently studying Hell and I find this topic very interesting. But I don’t necessarily have a direct rebuttal, but more or less some objections, questions, and observations.

    #1 seems a big vague. I would say that our worldy desires are based on our worldly flesh, wich is in contrast to God. But our spirit can be in conflict with our flesh. So who’s free actions are you talking about. The free flesh? or the free spirit. They both can have their own desires. (World vs things of God)

    #2 This is a foundationless comment. It needs a better definition. Which desires are rooted in goodness? The flesh’s desires? The spirit’s desires? This is a reference to Paul being conflicted with what his spirit wants to do and what his flesh wants to do. But this is just too vague. If the flesh desires to rape little children and kill them, was that ultimately rooted in goodness and if so, what was it distorted from?

    #3 I agree

    #4 I don’t understand how this correlation can be. The word says every good and perfect gift comes from God, but not every gift is from God. Can not the Devil gift you with things of the desire of your flesh? And wouldn’t we think that it is good, because we presumed it to be good? Well, then we need to understand Good. Associating good here and good there and then tying it all together with God is not a good basis of God’s goodness. It’s an interpretation of what we think Good is. And the foolishness of God is wiser than man’s wisdom.

    #5 This is a presupposition of free will. Assuming that if “individual A knew about information B, would without a doubt have to result in C” is an assumption we as sinners cannot understand properly. Here are two problems I have with this statement. A) “All ignorance erased” is something no one but God can possess. Ignorance is defined as “Lack of knowledge or information”. This is not possible. To be without ANY ignorance is to BE GOD. And we cannot be as such. Only God is without ignorance. We can know more than what we know now, and that will be revealed if God is willing. B ) Lucifer had an outrageous amount of knowledge about God. The angels had an outrageous amount of knowledge about God, and yet with their free will still have the opportunity to choose. And they did. Because God created us and is of complete goodness, it does not mean we are gods or we retain godliness.

    #6 If this were true, Jesus wasted his time.

    Reply
  7. Loel Passe says:
    April 27, 2020 at 4:57 pm

    Premise #2 is written by to begin with: Psalms 10: 3 For the wicked boasteth of his heart’s desire, and blesseth the covetous, whom the Lord abhorreth.

    Reply
  8. Anthony Bryant Sr. says:
    April 27, 2020 at 5:11 pm

    Something to also think about when it comes to our free will and desires if allowed to go unchecked. Being Satanistic and a masochist are also desires.

    “For everything in the world-the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life–comes not from the Father but from the world. For the world offers only a craving for physical pleasure, a craving for everything we see, and pride in our achievements and possessions.
    1 John 2:16 For all that is in the world–the desires of …
    biblehub.com/1_john/2-16.htm

    Reply
  9. Greg Barolet says:
    April 27, 2020 at 5:53 pm

    Nope

    Reply
  10. Christian Huls says:
    April 27, 2020 at 5:55 pm

    No, because it is based on a lot of presumptions.

    Scripture doesn’t say that everyone rejects God simply because they are ignorant. It says they LOVE darkness rather than the light.

    Reply
  11. Christopher Brynestad says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:13 pm

    1. We’re either slaves to sin or slaves to God (Jn 8:34; Rm 6:16-23). Even from a scientific viewpoint, we’re not as free as we think we are.
    2. Old and New Testaments alike point to the reality that there is no good (righteousness) in any of us apart from God’s intervention. (Ps 14; Rm 3:10-12)
    3. True
    4. Nope. Refer to previous references.
    5. Yes, ignorance will be erased when Jesus returns, but there will also be judgment in the moment of revelation. (Note the mourning that’ll happen when everyone sees Jesus at the Second Coming in Mt 24; see also Dn 12:2 and Rv 20:12)
    6. I’m of the mindset that this argument is itself incoherent. No argument can be made that collaborates with Scripture.

    Reply
  12. Cody Ashton Hitchen says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:17 pm

    “All desires are rooted in goodness ultimately” wait what? ?

    Reply
  13. Jereme McAlpin says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:19 pm

    Part 2 is a fallacy

    Reply
  14. Andrew Beltz says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:29 pm

    Jesus believed in Hell and preached more about Hell than he did about Heaven.

    ‘Nuff said.

    Reply
  15. James A. Henson says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:47 pm

    The human will is a servant of the heart… it carries out the desires of the heart…it’s just that the desire of the unregenerate heart is not for God!

    Reply
  16. David Stephen says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:50 pm

    That’s just awful.

    Reply
  17. Geoffrey Marshall says:
    April 27, 2020 at 6:58 pm

    Point 2 cant be substantiated.

    Reply
  18. Paul Mickelson says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:08 pm

    Hell will exist for a long time but is not eternal. At some point, it and Satan will be destroyed in the lake of fire

    Reply
  19. Dan Renfroe says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:18 pm

    Not all desires are rooted in good.
    I desire a cigarette and I know nothing about a cigarette is good.
    Only bad things come from smoking
    (I quite smoking almost 10 years ago but still have to make an effort to not go back to it)

    Reply
  20. Celeste Marie says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:40 pm

    4. 4. Therefore, all desires are rooted in God whether knowingly or unknowingly.

    False

    The desire for sex, within the parameters God established, is a God-Given desire and is rooted in God. The desire for sex outside the parameters God set in not a God-Given desire and is not rooted in God.

    Sex is not inherently good or evil. The bent of our desire, our motives for desiring, determine whether it is rooted in God or not.

    We are responsible for examining our motives in the present, and we are accountable for bringing them into alignment with God’s will.

    Reply
  21. Johnathon Morris says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:44 pm

    Not all desires are rooted in goodness as there are evil desires of the flesh, the devil, and the world. God is never at fault for our evil.

    Reply
  22. DaWei Li Chu says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:47 pm

    Premise 2 is wrong…the bible is perfectly clear that our desires are rooted in sin because of our sin nature.

    Reply
  23. Stewart MacLeod says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:50 pm

    The heart is desperately evil, all desires are not rooted in goodness.

    Reply
  24. C Cornell Hicks says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:51 pm

    Theb unfortunate fate of this assertion is, no one gets their ignorance wiped away until AFTER one has died. However, you have to TRUST CHRIST for your salvation BEFORE you die. If you do not [trust Christ], then you will get your ignorance wiped away, but it will be too late for salvation.. Hence, hell.

    Reply
  25. C Cornell Hicks says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:53 pm

    Also, I’m assuming by “ignorance wiped away” the OPster means to gain fuller understanding that’s not possible while in this physical realm.

    Reply
  26. Caleb Jackson says:
    April 27, 2020 at 7:53 pm

    For those who want more clarification, here is a video of him explaining the argument. Skip to 38:41 for the relevant portion, which ends around 48:56

    https://youtu.be/g2faD3JJ8DE

    Reply
  27. James Gore says:
    April 27, 2020 at 8:40 pm

    Okay do I don’t fully agree, but I can understand some. Let me explain. Is lust good or evil? It’s written against in the 10 commandments, however Song of Solomon describes two lovers very much sexually attracted to each other. So which is it?

    Reply
  28. GeOrge MeYer says:
    April 27, 2020 at 8:50 pm

    That “All desires are rooted in goodness ultimately” statement is where I lost the will to reason

    Reply
  29. John Caudill says:
    April 27, 2020 at 8:51 pm

    Malevolence exists, premise 2 fails. 4 downplays human responsibility for sin and makes Gods goodness the root of all mans sinful desires.

    This is dangerous junk Philosophy/Theology. Run away.

    Reply
  30. Jim Vaughan says:
    April 27, 2020 at 8:56 pm

    Jeremiah 17:9 (NKJV): “The heart is deceitful above all things,
    And desperately wicked;
    Who can know it?”

    Romans 3:10–12 (NKJV): As it is written:
    “There is none righteous, no, not one;
    11 There is none who understands;
    There is none who seeks after God.
    12 They have all turned aside;
    They have together become unprofitable;
    There is none who does good, no, not one.”

    Isaiah 53:6 (NKJV): “All we like sheep have gone astray;
    We have turned, every one, to his own way;
    And the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.”
    I’m gonna go with this and be thankful for Jesus.

    Reply
  31. Olivaire Watler says:
    April 27, 2020 at 9:26 pm

    Just about everything is wrong with that sequence. Our free actions are not necessarily based on our desires. To deny our desires in order to please God is what crucifying the flesh means. Many of our desires are not rooted in goodness at all. The majority are rooted in selfishness. Then we justify our selfishness to make it seem good.

    Reply
  32. Trevor Browning says:
    April 27, 2020 at 9:56 pm

    I have been looking into this for a while and while I disagree with the majority of this post, I do see is a seed war and I see God giving everyone a second chance to accept His Gift, Jesus Christ after the Ressurection of the dead

    Daniel wrote that, in the Ressurection of the dead, some will be raised to everlasting “CONTEMPT”. I believe God will give everyone a second chance in the Ressurection but some will choose to embrace hatred for God and Jesus because they simply don’t want to accept Christ. There is so much to this. I’ve been writing down what I see. Paul wrote that they will obtain mercy through our mercy and that all of Israel will be saved. I used to think that this was speaking of Spiritual Israel but clearly Paul is referring to the physical seed of Abraham.

    Reply
  33. Bishopcs Oosterveen says:
    April 27, 2020 at 10:42 pm

    Our desires are not rooted in Good . The heart is desperately wicked …

    Reply
  34. Andrew Forderhase says:
    April 28, 2020 at 12:33 am

    At a minimum I think number 2 has to be wrong, or at least it remains unsupported.

    Where is the support for “All desires are rooted in goodness ultimately”? How can a desire to steel from the poor be rooted in goodness?

    Where is the support for “Every evil act is based on a misunderstanding of goodness”? A child rapist has not merely misunderstood goodness. Context is crucial. He has deliberately perverted an act that has a right and proper context. He has taken advantage of an innocent child with complete disregard for the child’s well being. He has valued the satisfaction of his own perversions over the well-being of the child. He has dishonored himself and the child’s loved ones. The list of wrongs goes on and on. The rapist knew what was good, but chose to do evil in full knowledge of the evil in which he was going to engage.

    Reply
  35. William Tanksley Jr. says:
    April 28, 2020 at 10:41 am

    //one cannot freely reject God for eternity, as there would be no motive.//

    This is the foundational error: he assumes that either one _can_ reject God for eternity, OR one will eventually accept God. But this is a false dilemma. Genesis 3:22 shows that without supernatural help humans cannot live forever, and also shows that God withdraws that help from sinful man.

    So _although_ humans cannot reject God forever, this is not because they’ll always choose good things; it’s because they’re mortal and will surely die. This is why “now is the acceptable time, now is the day of salvation.”

    Reply
  36. Eric Javier Saenz says:
    April 28, 2020 at 10:43 am

    I stopped reading on line 3 when you said that all desires are rooted in goodness, ultimately. . Such a foolish statement.

    Reply
  37. Lawrence Apitz says:
    April 29, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    mankind is not rooted in goodness but a sinful selfish nature the whole argument is mute.

    Reply
  38. Lawrence Apitz says:
    April 29, 2020 at 2:14 pm

    you have to get into christian doctrines. mankind cannot consistently will to do good, all societies even the eastern have tried this and they came to know the trouble was in their own hearts. mankind is not as evil as we could be thank God for that, God restrains evil but many have found when God’s law says not to do something something rises up in them that wants to disobey it. this is the law of sin which is in my members. Paul says.

    Reply
  39. Here’s an argument proposed by David Bently Hart against eternal… #ourCOG – ourcog says:
    May 21, 2021 at 6:00 am

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