I am a Modalistic Monarchian, convince me that the Trinity existed prior to Modalism.
Discussion
50 comments
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Prove that Modalistic Monarchianism existed before monotheistic unitarianism.
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Monolotry is more biblical
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Why do you believe in something no apostle or apostle of the apostles ever preched?
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Let us make man in our own image.
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It’s improper to ask if modalism preceded Trinitarianism. The question is which is biblical.
And the Bible smashes all forms of modalism as heresy: the creation account, the prayer in John 17, the Great Commission, the baptism of Christ, Isaiah’s vision of Christ on His throne, the references to both Christ and God as the Alpha and Omega, John 1:1-12, and a myriad of others.
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Matthew 28:19 “Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:” Jesus said this btw
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Why do you need convincing? Are you in doubt?
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Genesis1 vs1 in the beginning God. Elohim. In hebrew singular mean plural.. so grammar is messed up, that’s why you will take all of eternity to find out out how big GOD’S TOE IS. So terminology.is not on trail here. You are because your itch ears want to hear and you be justified. Fables and vain . God is Light and in him there’s no darkness at all.. To send us all on a mission, check proverbs25 vs 2
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Hebrew 1 :6-8 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom. -
First 3 verses of the first book.
Genesis 1:1-3 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was formless and empty, and darkness covered the deep waters. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the surface of the waters. Then God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light.
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Baptism of Jesus all 3 were there!
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Why convince you of anything? You obviously know more already than hundreds of years of church history – so I doubt you can be convinced.
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The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Prove your claim before demanding others prove theirs.
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Genesis ch 1 is about as early as you can go.
Genesis 1:1-3
[1]In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
[2]And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
[3]And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Vs 1 God
Vs 2 Spirit
Vs light. That light is Christ. The sun wasn’t created till day 4. So the light mentioned here in Genesis 1:3 is not the sun. John clarifies this Light in John 1.
John 1:1-9
[1]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2]The same was in the beginning with God.
[3]All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
[4]In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
[5]And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
[6]There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
[7]The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
[8]He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
[9]That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. Note he’s says IN THE BEGINNING. Genesis ch 1 IN THE BEGINNING. John says he, speaking of Christ, was that Light.
So there ya go. The Trinity. -
Modalists claim that the Holy Spirit really isn’t a distinct personal being; instead, it is just the “force” or the “will” of God. However, we see that the Holy Spirit contains personal qualities. He knows God’s thoughts (1 Cor. 2:11), distributes gifts (1 Cor. 12:11), prohibits ministry initiatives (Acts 16:6-7), and speaks to people (Acts 8:29; 13:2). Only personal beings can do such things. Theologian Wayne Grudem adds, “Then there are places where the masculine pronoun he (Gk. ekeinos) is applied to the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13–14), which one would not expect from the rules of Greek grammar, for the word “spirit” (Gk. pneuma) is neuter, not masculine, and would ordinarily be referred to with the neuter pronoun ekeino. Moreover, the name counselor or comforter (Gk. paraklētos) is a term commonly used to speak of a person who helps or gives comfort or counsel to another person or persons, but is used of the Holy Spirit in John’s gospel (14:16, 26; 15:26; 16:7).” Wayne Grudem, Systematic Theology (Grand Rapids, MI. Zondervan Publishing House, 1994), 232.
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MODALISTIC MONARCHIST? Sounds scary to me!
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The first hint of God being Triune is Gen 1:26. The first hint of the modalism heresy was in the 2nd century AD.
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Oh my… well i would point you to the Athanasian creed
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Gen. 1:1 “In the beginning Elohim created…” a PLURAL word implying more than two, but always translated “God”, singular.
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It always amazes me when these know-it-all people come to a forum like this and claim to know more than all the learned theologians down through history…these persons have gone a long time without having their pride checked!
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Folks, Gen 1:26 is NOT used by Trinitarian Theologians to prove a Trinity. It’s against Hebrew linguistic practices.
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Grammatically, “us” and “our” in Genesis 1:26 cannot refer only to Elohim because the verb directly connected with “Elohim”, “said” is singular.
Additionally, if “Elohim” were being used in the plural here, as many under-informed Trinitarians assert, the verb “said” would be recorded in the plural also, but instead, “said” is third masculine singular.
Therefore, Grammatical science dictates that a singular Individual spoke and included or mentioned a second party in His statement, classical Jewish scholars claim that second party to be the Angels.
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Also, the Trinity cannot be found in the Bible. You should try looking at extra Biblical sources to find the Trinity. All scholars agree that the theory began to develope in the late 2nd century.
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“Today Scholars generally AGREE that there is NO doctrine of the Trinity as such in either the O.T. or the N.T.. It would go far BEYOND the intention and thought-forms of the O.T. to suppose that a late fourth-century or thirteenth-century Christian doctrine can be found there. Likewise, the N.T. does NOT contain an explicit doctrine of the Trinity.”
-Encyclopedia of Catholicism, pgs564-565 -
“….it (Trinity) is NOT taught clearly or explicitly taught ANYWHERE in the Scripture….There really is NO explicit statement of the doctrine of the Trinity in the Bible,….It is UNLIKELY that ANY TEXT of Scripture can be shown to teach the doctrine of the Trinity in a clear, direct, and unmistakable fashion.”
-God in Three Persons, M.J. Erickson,
Research Professor of Theology,
S.W. Baptist Theological Seminary -
Gen. Says Let’s make man in our image
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Guys, its a historical fact that the trinity didnt begin to develope until the 2nd century and wasnt finished until late 4th with later revisions. The trinity theory did not exist prior to that time. If you cannot admit this fact, you are operating far outside the official trinitarian position on how the trinity theory developed. You are ignorant of what the Trinity Theory actually is and the circumstances surrounding it’s development or you are knowingly defending the theory in spite of the factual data.
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Scripture reveals three persons. the Father, the word and the Holy Spirit each of whom posses intellect, emotion and free will which are the indicators of personhood. While these three are individuals they all do on occasion appear simultaneously at one time and in one place. Thus we know that God is triune. Three persons that are the one and only God. To attempt to make the being of God who is spirit, conform to our pathetic concept of corporeal reality is an exercise in futility. Ro 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
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I’m sure this is a fun thread
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Col 2:9- For in him ( Christ) dwelleth all the fullness of the GODHEAD bodily!
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I would never try to convince you because only God can do that. It will take a supernatural awakening from God by giving you a new heart (Ezekiel 36:25-27), and causing you to be born again, ( Johh 3:3-12), for you to see the truth. My job Is to preach the truth, It’s God’s job to convince and convict you. No one can make a dead person live, or a blind person see except God alone. And I mean dead person in the spiritual sense and blind person in the spiritual sense.
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Genesis 1:1
1st John 1:1
Math 28:19,20 -
Col 2:9 !!!
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Has anyone ever accused you of behaving like a Pharisee? Bc as I read all this that’s what I’m reminded of. Do you feel like this is the way to please God? And furthermore is God so incapable of pouring knowledge on His people? And if all their opinion is of one mind on a subject under the Holy Spirit than who are you to try and pic it apart? Nobody just like the rest of us. Sit down sir
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Why be convinced? You found the truth
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The bible clearly explains the godhead and it is not a trinity….Col 2:8 – 10
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TESTIMONY OF GOD:
1 JOHN 5:6-9;
6; This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus
Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood.
And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the
truth.
7; And there are three who give testimony in heaven,
the Father, the Word, and the Holy ghost. And these
three are one.
8; And there are three that give testimony on earth:
the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these
three are one.
9; If we receive the testimony of men, the testimony
of God is greater. For this is the testimony of God,
which is greater, because he hath testified of his Son.
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Would God have a Spirit ? Of course. Now that is only 2 out of 3. Now go to John 1 1-4 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. It says that nothing was made without him. God made all matter and space and even time, so he was there at the beginning. Or before the beginning if you to rationalize.
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I can still remember my bible readings, verses that has truly spoken to my heart that led me to believed that there are three persons in the Godhead. Verses like..and the Lord said to my Lord, the event of Jesus baptism where the Father spoke to his son and the Spirit as a dove descended upon the Son and much more.
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Modalism is wrong – convince me that I’m wrong.
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Falacy vs intelligence?
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How much evidence is enough? The text is clear about the big picture of the Triune God
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If you’re not convinced perhaps you have bigger spiritual issues instead of intellectual ones!
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From scripture we see that each member of the trinity distinguishes themselves from the other. The Son and the Holy Spirit both proceed from Yahweh. They are God in the same way man that comes from man is called man, meaning every person that comes from God is God. We know that they are set apart by the way each talks about the other.
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No believer in Jesus Christ ever feel the need to describe themselves with such hogwash terms. The focus is definitely not Jesus, Him crucified and resurrected in any person’s live that feel the incessant need to bog down their faith with these sort of arguments.
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Who was God talking to in Gen 3 about Adam and Eve living forever?
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What is modalism?
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Someone admitted that the Trinity didn’t exist until beginning to be developed in the 2nd century and has since seen many revisions. That’s a good start, when that fact can be established, seriously factual dialogue can take place.
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Jeffrey Sanate Hmar
_What is Modalism?_
=================Standard Modalism
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|—————|——————–|—
| Celestial Begetting |
| |
|-Eternity |
| |
| Terrestrial Begetting-|
|————————————|—
________________________
Marcellusian Modalism====================
MODALISM AND EARLY DEPARTURES
====================
STANDARD MODEL AND MARCELLUSIAN DEPARTURE (early 4th century)Modalism Standard Model :
1) Omnipresent Spirit
2) Celestial Body
3) Terrestrial Body
4) Glorified Human Body
na.Shekinah (Spiritual Manifestation)Modalism After Marcellusian Departure :
1) Omnipresent Spirit
2)
3) Terrestrial Body
4) Glorified Human Body
na.Shekinah (Spiritual Manifestation)Analysis:
Marcellusian Departure skips a Mode but arrives at same conclusion as the Standard Model.
Learn more about early Modalistic Monarchianism at the link below:
https://acts2216.org/logos-doctrine-explained -
In Genesis chapter 1 we see the trinity. It says that God said let there be light. God the Father spoke the Word to create everything. In John chapter 1 it says that Jesus is the Word and that the Word was there in the beginning and through the Word He created everything. So Jesus is the Word and He was with the Father from eternity past. In Genesis it also says that the Spirit, that is the Holy Spirit, was hovering over the waters, hence this shows the trinity being there when everything was created. I don’t know what you mean by modelism, all I can say is what the Bible says, and since I assume modelism is something that came after creation, then it is sure that the trinity came before modelism.
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