I have a question . I know in Corinthians 15:52 . It says this New King James Version
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
Now does THAt mean that the rapture will be after all the trumpets ? I’ve always been Pre Trib However I’m starting to rethink it now … just wanna hear your thoughts !
Post millennial is the way to go.
I would think it is the last trumpet of the ‘church age’ before the 7yr tribulation, then there will be seven more. Pre trib is biblically correct as Paul tells the Thessalonians we are not objects of Gods wrath.
Julia Maney I’m with you. A pre-trib. Dispensationalist. Cessationist. Those were my upbringing. But I’m open.
Which was why not too long ago I asked about Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. I thought I’d start from the OT to understand the future event (or historical even)
Julia, I too was once Pre-trib, but that passage and others helped me see the error of that popular view. The last Trumpet is the last trumpet… period. Note also 2nd Thessalonians 2:1… Paul links the “coming of Christ AND our being gathered.” Historically, the church believed in a 2nd Coming after the Great Tribulation where “those who alive and remain” are caught up to meet Jesus, who is coming back in judgement to destroy God’s enemies in the final battle. We receive immortal bodies to be a part of that Army of the Lord. The idea of separating the Second Coming with a “secret Rapture” is a new thing from about 1820. Look at Matthew 24…read it all and look for a “rapture.” Note when…”immediately AFTER the Tribulation of those days.” (vs.29). Look also at 2nd Peter 3:10… Peter seems to indicate that when this “thief in the night” event occurs, it’s all over…not 7 more years. May the Lord bless your study of His Word. Around the world, the Pre-trib view is not as popular…. although “popularity” is not important….Truth is. Corrie ten Boom, Holocaust survivor & gifted speaker believed that the Pre-trib view lead to death of many Chinese Christians when the Communists took over. I’ll try to find the link. http://endtimepilgrim.org/corrie.htm
CORRIE TEN BOOM and the RAPTURE – The End-Time Pilgrim
Pre-trib post-trib it doesn’t matter, this verse isn’t about the rapture.
What you should do is buy or borrow some books which have all 4 eschatological views, written by people who believe them. Let them try and convince you. If one seems closer to the Bible, get a whole book and read it. Titles like “Four Views of Revelation” or other books can give you a solid background.
Too many churches teach dispensationalism, and it such a way that the other 3 views are dismissed without examining them. If a certain view is true, then you should be able to compare it to the other views and show where it is wrong.
I have been Amillennial my whole life, despite going to dispie churches the first 15 years I was saved. Dispensationalism just seemed wrong, and didn’t fit my understanding of the Bible. In seminary I had the opportunity to look at all 4 views, and discuss them with the other viewpoints. It solidified my earlier beliefs, but with context and Greek to help me.
I always thought it was funny that this is a secret rapture with trumpets blaring…lol
I’m Soooo pre Trib., I don’t even eat Post Toasties
That verse is the second coming not rapture.
I shall read it tonight !
Pre-wrath and post trib rapture theology both breaks the rule of prophesy of first mention regarding the parameters of the Tribulation. A later reference to the same prophesy can not change the first mention of a prophesy – or then God is a liar (we know that’s not gonna happen).
The angel tells Daniel, in Daniel, 9:24 explicitly states the reasons for Jacobs Trouble of which the Tribulation 7 years *IS*, how long what for and more importantly ?for whom?. And The Tribulation, detailed in Revelation 6-19 *IS* the 70th week of that prophesy. Jeremiah refers to it as Jacobs Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.
It specifically states it is FOR “HIS,” Daniels people, the Jews and unbelievers. It is not for the church body of Christ.
➡️ WHO DOES JACOBS TROUBLE APPLY TO: Daniel 9:24:
The angel is talking to Daniel, a Jew, and he says, “Seventy weeks are determined upon ?THY? people and upon ?thy? holy city. So, according to the angel, it’s for the Jewish people, and Jerusalem! Jeremiah 30:7 agrees!
Daniel 9:24 also states what Jacobs trouble is to, “to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity,” meaning it’s purpose includes all unbelievers as well as the Jews.
➡️ JACOBS TROUBLE PURPOSE DEFINED:
Daniel also defines Jacobs Trouble’s EXACT PURPOSE as being, ”
(1) to finish the transgression, and to
(2) make an end of sins, and
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) and to anoint the most Holy.”
….
===> NOW – COME LET US REASON TOGETHER:
➡️ HOW IN THE WORLD DOES THIS APPLY TO THE BODY OF CHRIST? The Church? The Bride of Christ?
?To make an end of sins?
Christ was ALREADY made sin FOR his Church! (2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV) – “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” and “It is finished!” (John 19:30) Completed! Propitiation has been made! When Christ died he said, “IT IS FINISHED!”
?To make reconciliation for iniquity?
We’ve ALREADY been reconciled! (2 Corinthians 5:18 KJV) Again, “It is finished!” (John 19:30) Completed! Propitiation has been made by the blood of Christ!
?To seal up the vision and prophecy?
We are already SEALED! (Ephesians 4:30 KJV, Ephesians 1:13 “In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ?ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.?”
?To anoint the most Holy?
We’ve ALREADY been anointed – We are given HIS righteousness, Anointed and sealed by the Holy Ghost, we are clothed with HIS garment. We, the Church, are the body of Christ and the bride of Christ, so we are bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh (Genesis 2:23-24 KJV), his righteousness is IMPUTED to us! Also, we are then in Heaven worshipping the Lord BEFORE the anti-christ even hits the scene! (1 John 2:27, Revelation 5:9-10 KJV)
Jacobs trouble, a time of tribulation, even of great tribulation, has nothing to do with Christ’s Church!
Christ’s church is not appointed to wrath (Romans 5:9, 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, 1 Thessalonians 5:9). The church therefore cannot enter “the great day of their wrath” (Rev. 6:17). Some try to get around this by dividing the last week of Jacobs Trouble into 2 parts: 3.5 years of Satan’s wrath and then 3.5 years of God’s wrath thereby justifying a midtrib/prewrath rapture theory. This breaks the continuity of Daniels 70th week. ALL 7 years as defined in Daniel 9:24, Jeremiah 30:7 as Jacobs Trouble. It is Jesus as the Lamb of God who calls his church up hither, pre-tribulation, and THEN opens the seals of the scroll that it follows that all 7 hears are God’s wrath.
➡️ So once again, what is the purpose of forcing the body of Christ, the bride of Christ into the ANY part of Jacobs Trouble? There is none!
➡️ The church will NOT be there as they are raptured pre-trib!
➡️ Jacobs Trouble is for the Jews and the unbelievers, Not Christs Church! (Jeremiah 30:7)
I’m pan-trib. It will all pan out in the end.
➡️ =======>BONUS: IS THIS THE END OF IT???IN SHORT – no!
The fulfillment of Jacobs Trouble before the millennium is cut short.
? Matthew 24:22 (KJV) 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.
Those days of tribulation, during Jacobs Trouble, will be so severe that if God doesn’t cut those days short, no flesh would survive. Think about that!
? But God’s word also tells us in Matthew 5:18 (KJV), “For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.” So it follow that if God determined that 70 weeks-of-years MUST be fulfilled, “to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.(Daniel 9:24) and yet the time in the 70th week is cut short – then what happens to ‘that time’ that MUST be fulfilled according to scripture???
? Well the answer is here: Revelation 20:1-3 (KJV) 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, ?and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, ?till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and AFTER THAT HE (SATAN) MUST BE LOOSED A LITTLE SEASON.? <=== Right there it is! That time that was cut short reappears here to be fulfilled. ? That time, will be fulfilled and MUST be fulfilled. Every second of it! God said so and he is not a liar. And it is after the 1000 year millennium kingdom of Christs reign that that final piece of time that was cut off from Jacobs Trouble fulfillment before the millennium reign will be fulfilled after the millennium. Satan will be loosed once again for a very short period of time, it will be that exact amount of time that Daniels 70th week was cut short before the millennium and he then will turn all the nations against Christ and his kingdom. At THAT time, Christ will put and end to it all and destroy Satan and all of his followers.
Revelation 16:15 may provide some light. After the sixth bowl of wrath is poured out and before the seventh bowl is poured out, Jesus said, “Behold I come as a thief”(KJV) or “Behold I am coming as a thief”(NKJV). The Greek present tense can be translated either way so both translations are possible. But the present tense is futuristic here. It is not past tense. Jesus did not say, “Behold, I came as a thief” (seven years earlier or more). The “past tense” would be correct had He already come before the sixth bowl. If the “thief in the night” coming is after the seventh bowl, then the “present tense” heads up makes perfect sense (along with the admonition to keep our garments clean). Did not Jesus say that AFTER the great tribulation (second 3.5 years) that it would be dark over the whole world? (Matthew 24:21, 29-31). If Jesus came today, He would be coming as a thief in the day to half of the world and as a thief in the night to the other half only. But if it were dark for forty-five extra days (See Daniel 12:12) at the end of the 7 years, it would be impossible to know what day or hour it was after 45 days of darkness. Who would have an active watch battery at the end of the 7-year tribulation period? And Jesus could truly come as a thief in the night for everybody, couldn’t He? And it would be an unexpected coming since everyone would lose track of the days and hours.
Rapture in not in the bible.
The seventh trump doesn’t sound until Rev. 11:15. You should read all that comes before that.
It’s resurrection/rapture simultaneous event then it says the end no 1000 years no end time trib because the trib Jesus was referring to was destruction of temple in 70ad. The end means end not age but time
In Hebrew tradition the last trump refers to Tekiah HaGedolah, the last trump, sounded on Yom Teruah, The Feast of Trumpets, which we know in our day as Rosh Hashana.
https://www.the-wise-shall-understand.com/the-last-trump/
GODs people aren’t meant to go through the tribulation period
The Bible points to the rapture or second coming
after the last Church-related trumpet
on the last trump.on the last day .. Dispensational.premillenialism is false doctrine .
No rapture. That’s nothing but a dispensational jargon that is believed to be a scapegoat to leave this world. The resurrection will take place a the appointed time, but there is no such thing as up and up away while leaving all your problems behind.
There is no mention of the church preaching during the tribulation.. If we were here, why are we not preaching? Also, this tribulation is for God’s Wrath to be poured out on the sinful Earth and to bring the Jewish people to the knowledge of Christ was their savior. Is not about us. The age of Grace will be over that people will be saved during the tribulation but many will be martyred.
There’s a resurrection, but not a secret rapture. I used to teach the rapture position several years ago. I changed my position as a few Scriptures made that view seem untenable
Best advice. Don’t get caught up in doctrine that is outside of the actual biblical message. Is rapture going to happen? I don’t know. Is Jesus coming back? Most definitely. Whether the rapture happens or not Jesus is still coming back. I believe in the rapture but doing research it is not a definitive Christian doctrine. The second coming is fact and we will be with Jesus then regardless. If we go a little earlier in the rapture awesome. But it is not something to get stuck on.
I’m in the pre-trib camp for the following reasons. God used Noah’s flood, in type, as a future salvation plan roadmap.
1. Flood = Tribulation/wrath
2. Enoch = Church/Body of Christ
3. Noah = Jews
4. Ark = Jesus
5. Ark Door = Holy Spirit
6. Methuselah = God’s long suffering and patience.
So, Methuselah represents God’s patience and long suffering. His name means “his death shall bring” and he was the oldest person to ever live. Enoch is raptured out before the flood, just as the Church will be. Noah represents the Jews going through the great tribulation. The Ark represent Jesus, as the Ark is the only way to be saved. The Ark door represents the Holy Spirit, when door was closed shut, they were sealed/salvation secured.
As a side note, Methuselah was the oldest person to ever live, but died before his father ?. Only God ?
the rapture is on the 6th seal , the trumpet ? is a diff set of trumpets (not the 7) they come a little after the “last trump”
I used to be pre trib. I now believe, after study, that the church will go through the tribulation. The Bible does not teach pre trib
Perhaps we endure the tribulation, perhaps not. Either way, we hear the call, and we fly.. Personally, pre, mid, or post. The whole debate kinda made me tired, and i saw a lot of contention in it.
I was once pretrib. I don’t find it tenable. And I once taught the position.
I’m postmil now for a number of reasons. Took me a while to get here, though