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It doesn’t get any clearer than that! Before anyone was born, before any good or bad had been done, God chose those whom He desired to save how can this be read any other way?
Romans 9:13 Just as it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
Discussion
19 comments
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Not for us to know why, just that He did.
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Let’s look at how much God hated Esau. He hated him so much he made him the father of several nation’s. God hated Esau so much that he gave him wealth and a good full life. Oh yes God hated Esau greatly
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This post is just flat wrong. God never chose anyone EVER “to be saved.” Jacob/israel was chosen for a purpose ON EARTH.
And 2 Thessalonians 2.13-14 is actually anti-calvinism.
The elect always refers to people from israel. The church in thesssalonica was originally a jewish synagogue.
“Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, ?they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:? And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,”
Acts 17:1-2It doesn’t say “because God has chosen you from before the foundation of the world to be saved irresistibly and He has regenerated you to make you able to believe the truth.”
You can only reach that conclusion by ignorantly presupposing calvinism.
There is no indication in the text of 2 thessalonians 2 that “the beginning” means before the foundation of the world.
Jesus use “the beginning” to reference the start of his ministry. “And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
John 15:27Peter uses “the beginning” in relation to the instance when he had recently ate with Gentiles. “But Peter rehearsed the matter from the beginning, and expounded it by order unto them, saying,”
Acts 11:4Luke uses “the beginning” to reference Jesus’ earthly ministry in Luke 1.2
“Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;”Peter again uses “the beginning” to refer to the pentecost. Did that happen before the foundation of the world?
“And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.”
Acts 11:15Now get over yourself for 2 seconds and pay attention. When Scripture is talking about the beginning of creation, it TELLS you.
“But from the beginning OF the creation God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning OF the world.
Acts 15:18
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning OF the creation of God;
Revelation 3:14
For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning OF the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Matthew 24:21
And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning OF the creation.
2 Peter 3:4The fact that Paul intentionally left out “beginning of creation” in 2 thessalonians 2 means we SHOULDN’T assume it.
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You should check out kevin’ Thompson pretexting that verse , would you like to watch it ? i couldn’t bare more then few min of it
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There are groups dedicated to the topic of Arminianism vs Calvinism if you want to see these discussions regularly.
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Arminian : My “free” will trumps God’s will.
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The only free will you have is to sin. If you had free will you could obey God perfectly. Why cant you obey? Because of free will. There is a difference in free will and choice
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“Loving one and hating another” comes from the limitations in the available words of the language. They had no words for gradual degrees of loving, liking or hating. They had no words to say “God loved Jacob MORE THAN Esau.”
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Ecclesiastes says nothing is that hasnt been. If we have the words they did too
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You means the reader… So if everyone reads…
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Let’s see how much God “hated” Esau..
Deuteronomy 2:
v2. And the Lord spake unto me, saying,v3: Ye have compassed this mountain long enough: turn you northward.
v4. And command thou the people, saying, Ye are to pass through the coast of your brethren the children of Esau, which dwell in Seir; and they shall be afraid of you: take ye good heed unto yourselves therefore:
v5. Meddle not with them; ?for I will not give you of their land, no, not so much as a foot breadth; because I have given mount Seir unto Esau for a possession.?
v6. Ye shall buy meat of them for money, that ye may eat; and ye shall also buy water of them for money, that ye may drink.
v7. For the Lord thy God hath blessed thee in all the works of thy hand: he knoweth thy walking through this great wilderness: these forty years the Lord thy God hath been with thee; thou hast lacked nothing.
v8. And when we passed by from our brethren the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, through the way of the plain from Elath, and from Ezion–geber, we turned and passed by the way of the wilderness of Moab.
–God gave Esau their own land and protected it for them, giving warnings even to His own people, the israelites to NOT even try taking as much as a “foot breadth” because God wouldn’t allow it. Then God commanded the israelites to deal honestly with Esau and PAY them for their goods and services (because He hated them so much, obviously.) But it gets better…
Deuteronomy 2:
v16. So it came to pass, when all the men of war were consumed and dead from among the people,v17. That the Lord spake unto me, saying,
v18. Thou art to pass over through Ar, the coast of Moab, this day:
v19. And when thou comest nigh over against the children of Ammon, distress them not, nor meddle with them: for I will not give thee of the land of the children of Ammon any possession; because I have given it unto the children of Lot for a possession.
v20. (That also was accounted a land of giants: giants dwelt therein in old time; and the Ammonites call them Zamzummims;
v21. A people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; ?but the Lord destroyed them before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead:
v22. As he did to the children of Esau, which dwelt in Seir, when he destroyed the Horims from before them; and they succeeded them, and dwelt in their stead even unto this day:?
v23. And the Avims which dwelt in Hazerim, even unto Gaza, the Caphtorims, which came forth out of Caphtor, destroyed them, and dwelt in their stead.)
— God hated Esau SO MUCH that He actually fought alongside them AGAINST their enemies, the Horims, and HE brought about a victory for Esau and allowed Esau to dwell in their land. Apparently God has a different definiton of “hate” than calvinists do.
Jesus said, “If any man come to me, ?and hate not his father, and mother, and WIFE, and children, and brethren, and sisters, ?yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.”
Luke 14:26Didn’t Paul say, “Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”
Ephesians 5:25But Jesus says hate your wife… .Weird.
Oh wait! Jesus clarifies what he’s talking about!
“He that loveth father or mother MORE THAN ME is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.”
Matthew 10:37THERE IT IS! the “hate” that Scripture is referring to is nothing more than showing favor for one over the other! God showed favor to Jacob MORE than Esau, and He decided to work with Israel to bring about the Messiah.
You people are ridiculous. You actually think the Creator of humanity HATES most of the people he created (in His own image, by the way). Pathetic, petty, absurd, disgusting, unjust, unloving, UNBIBLICAL!
Calvinism is theologically bankrupt at every turn.
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In this scenarior ,Pual the apostle belief that salvation begin and end wit God. therefore no one has the capacity to save himself,our salvation is by his grace,not by might. It is not GOD wish to repudiate ESUA ,and love JACOB, ” Making him a nation called “Isreal ” does not connote that he Dislike others and love others NO” He love all people because he made them,however His eternal rewards go only to to those who are faithful to him. I presupposes that, those who were convince by the HOLY spirit to submit to Him with a total obedience,were the elect. RD :Malachi 1:2 ,ROM 8;27-29 , to cut it short ,the rebellion were those been set for damnation. GOD is not partial ,Coz He has given comman to all humans.
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First of all God didn’t hate Esau, a careful search of Esau will find that Esau in the Bible means Esau’s descendants the Edomites. Jacob here means Israel. He loved Israel, but hated the group called Esau, the Edomites. And hate does not mean hate, like If a man hate his brother. God loves and hates with emotions and actions. He loves everyone and loves His enemies (we were once His enemies and He died for us) and calls us to be like Him. So, how can he hate? Well,God punishes those who have punishment coming, and this is called God’s wrath. His hate, an English word, here should be rendered as wrathful anger. It’s a hateful attitude towards our serious and deep seated sin. It does not mean he actually hates us and wants us dead or to torment us. That’s our human version of hate.
He desires that none should perish and all should be saved. He makes us knowing what we will choose and therefore predestined us simply by being all-knowing and making us. God calls us and we respond. We love him because he first loved us. He calls us because he knows we will follow him and listen to his voice. Says he knows his sheep and his sheep listen to his voice. That does not mean that he desires some people to be tormented in Hell forever just because he feels like it. We are accountable for whether we ourselves accept or reject God. We can’t come to him until he calls us spiritually and then we respond. He calls us knowing we will respond to him. Why waste his time calling people that will reject him. Many will never feel that supernatural call and prompting. This keeps the accountability of rejecting God on man and off of God. -
Points to consider:
– “Hate” in the Scripture could also mean “to love less”
– The Scripture doesn’t explicitly teach that Esau was destined to go to hell, nor that he is in hell right now. Most Calvinists just assumes this
– Election doesn’t always mean salvation. Judas Iscariot is an elect. He was able to come to Jesus at that time because the Father had drawn him
– There are many other theories, within Christian orthodoxy, that explains soteriology, free will (or lack of), and Ordo Salutis. Calvinism is just one of them -
I read that to mean God’s chosen method of salvation is sanctification by the Spirit through faith in the truth. So all who are saved through this method have salvation. If you want to call me unregenerate because I do not believe in election, go for it.
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Wait. What? Is this post trying to say that in the beggining God chose who to hate and who to love because of the verse that says “Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated”?. I just feel so bad for Esau. After God gave him the chance to be created, after God has given days of life, after God giving him food to eat then later he would find out that he was created just to be hated by God. If this is sound doctrine, I just xant hear it
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God knew from before the foundation of the world the heart of a man; those who would believe and those who wouldn’t. Gid is sovereign. He can make and use as He wills– sine vessels for noble use and others for ignoble use. It iscall to His glory. Man dhould not boast–we di not know God’s chosen
We speak Jesus to the unbeliever at every opportunity. The Holy Spirit will do His job -
God has chosen those who believe the gospel to be sanctified for the purpose of doing good works. That’s what those verses are saying. You must read the entire Bible. Romans 9 is about Israel’s past standing. You are not Israel. We must rightly divide scripture.
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