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So I’m really trying to research this honestly. I even…

5 years ago • April 24, 2021 • by ourCOG

So I’m really trying to research this honestly. I even went to a Jewish group, but they’re not very helpful all they keep doing is accusing me of being a wolf in sheep’s clothing when all I’m trying to do is find the truth. Super unhelpful and frustrating. I thought they would actually have more resources.

How do we know that Judaism and the entire OT is not a product of outside religious influence? I’m studying ancient history and many secular scholars assert that Judaism is in fact a religion that is a product of many ancient religions and even Greek gnostic influence. How do we know it was the other cultures that took from Judaism or the Hebrew beliefs and not the other way around? Please provide sources. Thank you in advance.

Categories: #ourCOG

Discussion

51 comments

  1. Tom Franklin says:
    April 17, 2020 at 2:58 pm

    I recommend that you read the book “evidence that demands a verdict” which goes over this very topic, as well as various other topics. Well worth a read

    Reply
  2. Avi-Asher Hyde says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:04 pm

    Wow, a lot of unbelievers here… quick to answer too.

    Reply
  3. Wynni Wagner says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:07 pm

    Because the Spirit of God guides through the truth of Gods word. Until the Spirit moves it’s hard to take the Bible as Gods innerant word, keep seeking and you will find it to be truth….

    Reply
  4. Jared Hamilton says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:10 pm

    Consider the God of the mountains with the same pronounced name as Ye-ow-vah who was pre-Philistinian which predates Judaism!!!

    He was represented in a cuniefomic-style by two mountains (GOD THE FATHER AND JESUS CHRIST) and is the documented God of pre-to-post Iron Age.

    Now I present to you the tables turned!!!
    I ask of one to prove to me that the other religions did not borrow the altars, glory, and worship of OUR GREAT GOD and adopt them….possibly fueled by fallen angels Mocking God, taking people from his grace!!!

    How may we prove/disprove this?

    Just as Satan twists the word, understanding, and works of God, he and his fallen twist history.

    When we view the question as I presented it, we find it is OTHER RELIGIONS that now must bear the burden of proof.

    Fallen angels may not raise the sea for Moses’s to cross in the name of our lord.

    Reply
  5. Daniel Struse says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:12 pm

    Read the OT it defines the religion of the Bible as apposed to the other religions.

    Brief synopsis…
    Bible = one true God vs mystery Babylonian religions.

    Most Christian churches today incorporate some of the pagan influences but the OT was strictly against it.

    Reply
  6. Christopher Brynestad says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:13 pm

    It sounds like your scholars are referring to modern Judaism. It’s true that they’ve been influenced by, if not the influencers of, Gnosticism. It’s the theology of the Kabbala. The OT wasn’t influenced by the Greek culture because it was around before then. It would be better to look into ancient Ugarit, Egypt, and Babylon for cultures that would’ve had significant impact. Though, from my studies I wouldn’t argue that the culture influenced the the writings of the OT as much as God demonstrated that he was greater than the symbols and gods of the those cultures by defeating them in ways and terms appropriate to those cultures.

    Reply
  7. Freddy Jocksand Diaz says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:15 pm

    It’s a good question. There is a very long answer and a short one. I will give you the short one, as much as I can.

    While great civilizations and empires already existed and had formulated their ideologies, developed writing systems and began to record it, before the rise of the Hebrew Writings.
    The story of the Bible tells us that That God, called Abraham Out of Ur of Chalddeans, cradle of the Sumerian culture and revealed himself as the Creator and one True God. The purpose was to reveal himself to all of humanity because it was lost enslaved under ruthless rulers.

    Yes, there are many similarities in the creation story of the oldest cultures like Chinese, India, Ethiopian, Egypt, Sumeria, Native Americans, etc.

    Genesis though written after other older texts were written, it offers a more comprehensive narrative of human origins. When you compare it to all other accounts, you will find that they all show ambiguities and fantastic incongruences, traces, yet Génesis shows that the origin of our world had a purpose, a design, a creator, and a plan.

    The Bible didn’t copy or borrow from older cultures, it offers a correct account of what happened which was shrouded in misticism by other cultures who worshiped their rulers as gods.

    In order to accept that declaration one may have to put the claims and narrative of the Old Testament to the test.

    You will find that the evidence is overwhelming. But at the end, you will have to make a choice and it is by faith.

    I recommend to watch documentaries by Patterns of Evidende the Moses Controversy and Exodus. Also Answers in http://xn--gnesis-bva.org/

    Reply
  8. Anthony Pomeroy says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:21 pm

    Conformity. Genesis 1 to around chapter 13 has things in it that some could say was plagiarized by Moses since many older cultures at the time of writing Genesis had similar accounts. Well you have to consider the timing, around chapter 13 we are introduced to Abram who eventually will be known as Abraham.
    The timing of this is right after the flood during the time of the dispersement of the people at the tower of Babel. So from the flood to Babel aka ancient Mesopotamia stories was passed by word of mouth by Noah and his family to their descendants. At Babel God confounded the languages and the population split up. They all took those stories passed down to them from Noah this is why there is over 270 different accounts of the flood from all over the world. So later after God separated Abram this is the beginning of the history of the Jewish people. So when Moses came along he didn’t plagiarize any stories, it’s the same stories that all cultures at that time accepted as truth. So there is some overlap amongst other cultures accounts. After all they all go the accounts from their great ancestors Noah and his sons.
    Now Moses writing is about 500 years or so after the Babel. Once he starts with Abraham now you have an accurate account of the lineage of the Jewish people. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, etc all the way to Christ. Books like judges, Joshua, Samuel, kings 1 an 2 Chronicles 1 an 2 is historical books accounting Jewish history. The books of the prophets are dated and those dates coincide with the historical books as to the time period they prophecied. Good example, Jeremiah was prophet prior to Babylonian exile. Daniel and Ezekiel was during the Babylonian captivity.
    So the thing with the OT is conformity. All OT books is God giving account of the Jewish people who eventually he would send his son Jesus Christ through that lineage.

    Reply
  9. Jo Kelechi says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:23 pm

    Have you read it at all?

    Reply
  10. Caleb Backholm says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:27 pm

    Why does this question matter to you? I’m not seeing the relevance to anything as to who borrowed from whom.

    Reply
  11. Rick Holtsclaw says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:28 pm

    Also see: https://www.gotquestions.org/Yahweh-Edomite-Canaanite-god.html

    Reply
  12. Thomas Dobbins says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:36 pm

    Not sure if this is what your asking but I got you:

    So back in the time of Nimrod and Semiramis they made the tower of Babel. I’m sure your familiar off the story. Well think about this. They had this religion where they worshipped Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. It was called the “mystery religion” . Now we all assume the tower was shaped like a skyscraper when infact it was like a pyramid. (Hence why there are pyramids all over the world) so as they are building this God scatters man all over the world and gives them different languages. So all these people that had the “mystery religion” are now scattered and soak a different language . So now they’re gods are the same but are given new names. Hence all the similarities in so many religions. Make sense??? Feel free to ask any follow-up questions if I helped in anyway. ♥️

    Reply
  13. Rene Chantraine says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:41 pm

    When you are asking how the OT product is not an outside religious product, you are asking infact the inerrancy of the OT product! Such is the OT product inspired ? Is it the word of the true God? Then this is not only a question of sources but a question also of faith! It is also a theological question where we need to ask ourselves where the Bible comes from? 2 Time:16

    Reply
  14. Chuck Courtnay says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:42 pm

    The works of Flavius Josephus. He was a member of the ruling council in Jerusalem. He was a Jewish historian and scholar.

    Reply
  15. Mat Innes says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:46 pm

    Walk in the spirit and you will understand more the ways of God. The bible says if any of you lacks wisdom ask God and it will be given to you liberally James 1:5. you seek in the logic to prove, it is not a question of seeking to justify believing but simply just believing! The bible is either all true or it’s all wrong!

    Reply
  16. Michael Woitaszewski says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:46 pm

    God did away with the Jewish system in 70AD when the Romans destroyed the second temple! Because Jews had to prove their lineage with the records kept in the temple, upon it’s destruction all the records were destroyed and the Jewish system altogether. No Jew from that day to this can prove their linage! This happened as a result of the Christ ushering in a new system. One that would replace the Jewish system altogether. It’s called Christianity! On the day of Pentecost, 33AD this new system was inaugurated by the apostle Peter in Acts chapter 2 after the ascension of the Christ. God gave them basically 40 years to figure things out and transition into the new covenant. And then He burned it all down! Those that refused to transition died along with their temple. Whatever Judaism is today, is fake, man-made religion just as catholicism is!

    Jesus speaking … Luke 19:41 When He approached Jerusalem, He saw the city and wept over it, 42 saying, “If you had known in this day, even you, the things which make for peace! But now they have been hidden from your eyes. 43 For the days will come upon you when your enemies will throw up a barricade against you, and surround you and hem you in on every side, 44 and they will level you to the ground and your children within you, and they will not leave in you one stone upon another, because you did not recognize the time of your visitation.”

    Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of ]the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

    Reply
  17. Jim Vaughan says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:47 pm

    Genesis 3 brings the promise of Jesus at the fall of man (original sin)

    Genesis 3:14–15 (NKJV): 14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:
    “Because you have done this,
    You are cursed more than all cattle,
    And more than every beast of the field;
    On your belly you shall go,
    And you shall eat dust
    All the days of your life.
    15 And I will put enmity
    Between you and the woman,
    And between your seed and her Seed;
    He shall bruise your head,
    And you shall bruise His heel.”

    Reply
  18. Blake Cowle-Healy says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:49 pm

    John 7:17… Jesus taught from the OT…and it was All about Him. He knew the scriptures and we should to.but in order for us to know if his teaching is from God we must first surrender to God’s Will and decide that we don’t want to do our way we want his way. See Jn 7:17

    Reply
  19. Thomas Dobbins says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:51 pm

    This is right down your alley.

    https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLji-n0mIRjFA72ZhULPF-eCzBi4c_rI52

    Reply
  20. Gus Rodriguez says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:56 pm

    Once you say you have a secular teacher, it’s enough to raise a flag, many teachers are there for the paycheck, many don’t even believe in the Bible, is your teacher biased? There’s a considerable amount of archeological discoveries that corroborate places, people and events described in the Bible.

    Reply
  21. André Catharino says:
    April 17, 2020 at 3:56 pm

    Hello again Samantha Finch-Finchley and welcome to my world haha .. I had the same question this week.. I read somewhere that Moses hadn’t write the Torah..

    Thanks God I remembered to watch again “PATTERNS OF EVIDENCE: MOSES CONTROVERSY” this challenged the author of the movie as well during his research.. I recommend you watching before taking any other information out there..

    And also, the burned top mountain and the rock split in half helped me persevering in my faith.. I’ll put this 15 minute video here below..

    Hope it helps ?
    https://youtu.be/YjrxHqNy5CQ

    Reply
  22. Jeff Finster says:
    April 17, 2020 at 4:01 pm

    Because an actual God actually spoke to Abraham giving him instructions with promises attached. Even Christianity exists because he believed the promises and did what he was instructed.

    Reply
  23. Naathan Lewis says:
    April 17, 2020 at 4:05 pm

    This man reads directly from the Hebrew and provides great context on the scriptures.

    https://www.torahclass.com/teacher/author/tom-bradford/old-testament-studies/old-testament-studies-genesis

    Something you have to keep in mind is that when the flood happened, the entire world spoke one language and worshipped one God. After the Tower of Babel, all other religions arose as a perversion of this original one. Of course there would be similarities. Secularists don’t believe this to have happened, however.

    Also keep in mind that Abraham was the first Hebrew. We don’t know what they were called before then or what language they spoke.

    Reply
  24. Darin Martin says:
    April 17, 2020 at 4:28 pm

    The whole of the Old Testament testifies of the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, then He comes, one cannot deny that the evidence for the New Testament is so strong that one must remain ignorant of some very obvious things to hold it as false.

    The New basically authenticates the Old, as plainly as the Old prophecies the New.

    I do hope this finds you well and also that it helps. May the Lord bless you sister.

    Reply
  25. Roy Thagard says:
    April 17, 2020 at 4:47 pm

    Welcome Samantha. I hope you find the answers you are looking for. I am scratching my head at what you have heard. Gnosticism didnt begin until after Jesus died, so it had no influence on the old testament. There have been some scrolls found in the dead sea that date to 600 bc that help confirm the accuracy of the old testament. So we can know with certainty the integrity of the teachings of the old testament is great.
    As to the religious teachings being a blend of other cultures, i find it hard to put value to that statement. Judaism is by far the oldest monotheistic religion. Any other culture would place more gods into its writings and practice. Even the greeks during Paul’s time worshipped multiple gods and that was geographically the closest outside influence.

    Reply
  26. Samuel Luke says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:03 pm

    Dr Michael Hieser is great on these issues

    Reply
  27. Sebastiaan de Roode says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:03 pm

    Are you a Christian ?

    Reply
  28. Ralph T. A. Ranger says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:09 pm

    Well there is no historical doubt the Torah was written around 1400ish BC. Gnosticism did really emerge until AD 150-200 AD (though there were mystical religions prior to Gnosticism that had some of the same beliefs). So the timeline doesn’t support Gnosticism leading to Judaism.

    I would suggest reading on specifically “textual criticism of the Old Testament”

    Reply
  29. Harold Goldman says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:25 pm

    When you say judaism this was conceived when Judah was in captivity. There’s nothing in scripture telling us about judaism

    Reply
  30. Manfred Boensch says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:53 pm

    Logically Hebrew culture existed long before the Greek culture. Try and find out how far back you can trace the Hebrew culture. A good reference is The Bible. Start at Genesis and you will find Abraham in there, and see how God was involved from the beginning with the Hebrew nation

    Reply
  31. Patrick Boren says:
    April 17, 2020 at 5:55 pm

    So. The Old Testament as part of the Bible is man inspired according to those who believe it was influenced by man right? For me, it is as the Scripture says many times saying thus says the Lord. The apostles said that all of Scripture is God inspired. Jesus who is God said to pay attention to Old Testament Scripture.. So for me there is no question.

    Reply
  32. RJ Mueller says:
    April 17, 2020 at 6:15 pm

    I recommend Gary habarmas, NT WRIGHT, Lee Strobel, William lane Craig, these are for historical and moral sources, I have many more if you wish but I’ll give these sources for now aswell as add scientific sources, like Hugh Ross, fazale Rana, Stephen Meyers, James tour, John Lennox and so on.

    Now your curious about whether Judaism borrowed or not. Well the vast majority of historians concede that the new testament records the events of Jesus reliably, we can put it to the test in many different ways, one of which being textual criticism which we can use to see if any of the details makes the writer look bad or is embarrassing for them, then there likely telling the truth. Now as far as archeological evidence, we have a stone with Pontius pilate s name engraved on it, Ciaphas the head priest, we have his bones, we also have evidence of the empty tomb, we have evidence from the texts particularly the writings of Paul that the documents of Jesus resurrection date back to no longer then 3 months after the cross, which means that the creeds of the church were put into place before these documents were written since some of these documents have creedle statements written in them repeating what was previously said. We also have eye witness accounts of the risen Jesus, around 515 people seen Jesus after his death and resurrection, some say hallucinations but hallucinations aren’t shared, hallucinations are part of individual minds I can’t see a hallucination another person has. We also have evidence outside of the new testament a couple examples would be tacitus, Joseephus, philos, and so on talking about the early Christians. However if your talking about the old testament we have quite abit of evidence for that aswell, we especially have pretty good evidence for Abraham the friend of God, the predictions the old testament makes also provides good evidence for the truth of it, especially the book of Daniel. However what I will say is If the new testament proves true then same shall be of the old testament because what did Jesus teach, the old testament and he is the son of God so what he teaches is what is correct. Also everything I say to you secular scholars aswell as Christian scholars concede and agree with it. Like you I’ve done much research into this out of curiosities in hopes to follow what’s true and hopefully the information I have given you helps you in your endeavor. May God watch over you on your journey.

    Reply
  33. Brian Allen says:
    April 17, 2020 at 6:18 pm

    You are trying to point to things that are not easily identified. Yes, there was cross cultural influence just like there is cross cultural influence in the world today.

    That being said, it is more likely the other way around. Israel influenced the rest of the world.

    Part of the problem comes with some of those academics trying to hold biblical texts to a different standard.

    Reply
  34. Tony Mikhaiel says:
    April 17, 2020 at 6:27 pm

    Gotta be careful here….

    The Tanakh is written by men in their own style & historical context.

    That means they may adopt elements from around them, even elements from other religions, & use them.

    But when understood in context, the theology that results is that if the True God.

    Scriptures are BOTH man made & God inspired.

    If you ignore the human element, you will get into trouble.

    If you ignore the divine element, you will be separated from God forever.

    Reply
  35. Tim Lewandowski says:
    April 17, 2020 at 6:30 pm

    I’m Jewish. You can ask me any question you want.

    Reply
  36. Aldrich Janelle says:
    April 17, 2020 at 7:05 pm

    Fulfilled prophecies. From my next book: “With the exception of Israel’s actual salvation from its persecution, Jesus has fulfilled every single prophecy (more than 350 Messianic prophecies) exactly as described in the Old Testament pertaining to the first coming of the Messiah. Stoner (1958) mathematically identifies just eight of those 350 fulfilled prophecies as having a chance of 1 chance in 100, 000, 000, 000, 000, 000 chances.” Shalom

    Reply
  37. Nick Shara says:
    April 17, 2020 at 7:16 pm

    Samantha, this can be much simpler than many people make it to be. All we have to do is prove Jesus.

    Look at the atheist scholars like Bart Ehrman. They affirm that Jesus certainly existed, he certainly died by crucifixion and his followers certainly went to their deaths swearing that they saw him alive again later. Jewish historians, secular historians, and even roman historians all say that’s accurate.

    And if Jesus is legit, then we get the old testament affirmed automatically because he said it was valid.

    Reply
  38. Carol Strong says:
    April 17, 2020 at 8:20 pm

    Your on the wrong path, listening to secular anything is not going to give you any truth in any thing, to say nothing of wisdom

    Reply
  39. Scott Docter says:
    April 17, 2020 at 9:06 pm

    The truth is that the pagan religions and myths are often loosely based on the true story. Michael heiser has been very helpful for me to get my head around this issue. His book supernatural and unseen realm delve into the ancient religions, myths and context of the Bible and show the connections between them. The book Genesis 6 conspiracy was also really helpful in this regard. My faith has only been strengthened the further I have researched these issues while holding on to the word of God as inspired and God breathed… that is very important, start there and the rest will fall into place.

    Reply
  40. Carol Strong says:
    April 17, 2020 at 9:21 pm

    Ya he is good, the Naked Bible

    Reply
  41. Jereme McAlpin says:
    April 17, 2020 at 10:57 pm

    A monotheistic religion is the product of multiple, outsider, pantheistic, religions, with some not even being as old as Judaism? Yup seems air tight to me. You’ll just have to concede this argument.

    Reply
  42. Kevin Hughes says:
    April 18, 2020 at 12:46 am

    A great documentary is “Genesis is History” there are some great books on Genesis. I have a bad headache, but if you PM me I can remember to get some for you.

    Anyway, another thing is that even if God did draw on religious customs familiar to the jews, why would that be bad? Doesn’t it make sense that God would communicate truth in a way that was understandable?

    Reply
  43. Frank M Snyder Sr. says:
    April 18, 2020 at 2:17 am

    Amazing!!! You got many replies but none of them give you their source! The natural person Does not understand the things of God. God is spirit , you need to be spiritual to grasp these things. My source is the Bible!

    Reply
  44. Stan Wosnicki says:
    April 18, 2020 at 10:05 am

    What is Judaism to a Jew?
    Suggested reading:
    “Essential Judaism”
    by George Robinson, c2000 2016, Atria press

    Reply
  45. Nakai Cox says:
    April 18, 2020 at 10:11 am
    Reply
  46. Stan Wosnicki says:
    April 18, 2020 at 10:13 am

    “… the work of the mystics is the underpinning of almost all Orthodox Jewish thought, “the official theology of the Jewish people…”
    – excerpt from “Essential Judaism” by George Robinson, c2016, Atria press, paperback, pg. 365

    Reply
  47. Robert Di Meglio says:
    April 18, 2020 at 12:41 pm

    I believe you’re thinking of those who follow the talmud and not the Torah.

    Reply
  48. John Allen says:
    April 18, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    Look at the first books of the old testament look the tower of babel . The people had the basic teaching of Noah a Godly. In the old testament God taught his people.

    Reply
  49. Jennifer Roman says:
    April 18, 2020 at 4:21 pm

    Jaja now I am not loved cause I am a woman ? Okay brother y respect your opinion,I was saved from dying in a Highway and in the moment I put my arm up and praise the Lord,to save me,it appeared a Christian lady to support and help me get where I needed to be,I was being tormented… and there is more to my story the point is,he redeemed me cause he loved me,believe me I know his love ❤️ I have experienced it in my life jeje ?✝️?and it’s wonderful,blessing brother ✨??

    Reply
  50. Uriah Christensen says:
    April 18, 2020 at 6:33 pm

    Actually, it is influenced by outside pagan religions. There is an online course titled “Introduction to the Old Testament With Christine Hayes” that starts right out by looking at the culture around when the OT was written. Open Courses are free for all, but no credits are issues. This particular class is from Yale, and the lectures are on the YaleCourses YT channel. The rest of the material (syllabus, assignments, reading materials) are on the actual Yale site.

    We actually can see the pagan influence in the Bible itself. The Hebrew word used for “God” is Elohim, and many names (like Israel) seems to come from the Canaanite God El. Elohim was seen being used to be the name of the Canaanite Pantheon. The father of the gods within the Pantheon is El. in Aramaic, El is singular, and Elohim is plural: God and the gods, respectively. This becomes clear when you read the 82nd Psalm. We read that God sits before a divine council made up of the gods to pass judgement. An interesting paper goes into this psalm, and purposes that it is the Canaanite God El that is doing the judgement, and that it us Yahweh pleading the case against the other gods. After which El gives Yahweh a promotion, so to speak.

    Link to the course and paper:

    “Introduction to the Old Testament (Hebrew Bible)”
    https://oyc.yale.edu/religious-studies/rlst-145

    “El as the Speaking Voice in Psalm 82:6-8”
    https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eMbjfK_Y2YvDAZrMB04B49swf0CRa4-S/view?usp=drivesdk

    Reply
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