All #ourCOG News 5.0
This might be a simple example but it does show you the purpose of works: To animate our faith in Christ that was provided by grace.
We are saved by Faith alone but does not operate in a vacuum.
Discussion
50 comments
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They could both be. Imho
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The harder question is if they’re both drunkards and both addicted to pornography lol. In this scenario neither profess Christ as their savior but the second would have the appearance of faith that James speaks of. Blaspheming would have to be more specific because the son we are told is forgivable but the spirit of God is unforgivable. Because of this my money would be on 2nd if I had to choose. I would hope works would come out of a regenerated person and not a heart of works.
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Sola is an unbiblical addition that contradicts. Just so you’re aware. Totally an unnecessary one… except for those who enter in by another gate.
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I think it depends on whether or not the first man is repentant. If he still actively blasphemes God and sees no issue with it, I don’t see how he can be a follower of Christ. It’s kind of tougher with the second man. What are his motives in going to church and witnessing? I don’t think we have enough information to know.
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… saved by faith alone but not by faith that is alone….saving faith produces good works ie. regeneration.
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I would say 2. When I got saved, God stopped me and helped me stop drinking, swearing and all kinds of sin. I could not have stayed close to Jesus fo 40 years, if I had not obeyed the things God told me to do. While it is true #2 could be a Pharisee, I find it hard to believe that anyone could be a bold witness for the gospel, if they weren’t truly saved. #1 simply shows no fruits of the change God makes in our lives.
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We can give our opinions but only God knows their heart.
Matthew 7:15-20
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. -
i dont gamble
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I’m not a gambler. God will decide.
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Anybody can claim to be a Christian. That doesn’t mean they are.
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I would say its none of my business. The drunken pervert could be in a bad way in his life and lost his touch with God. He needs the good shepherd’s touch. The evangelist could be a hypocrite who only tells you what you want to hear so he can look good
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My money is on Jesus.
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Both can be Christian except the first one has back slidden into the ways of the world. For example the Barna poll group had something like 85% of pastors in America said they viewed pornography. Some Christians do get drunk which is a sin. The blasphemy part I’m not to sure about that one because I have heard some Christians say God D*** just because some accident happened in front of them or they were almost hit and killed etc. Some Christians would like to go to church but feel it’s better off to not go because they are harassed by the body of Christ and not loved. You have gays lesbians etc who are in this category of feeling judged and not welcomed. Even Christ said the prostitutes and tax collectors enter into the kingdom. What I’m not saying is that people should continue in sin because Hebrews warns us of a great chastisement from God if we do so. All to say God’s Grace is sufficient enough for us to be free from sin and alive in Him.
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Fruit of the spirit
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This is an example of hot and cold christians. It’s the lukewarm ones Jesus warns about.
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Mat.25:31¶When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37¶Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41¶Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44¶Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. -
Our works REVEAL our salvation. Our salvation doesn’t rely on our works.
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When we are buried with Christ in baptism. we rise to walk in newness of life, having repented of our sins and we do all we can to walk in Jesus’ teachings. I am not the judge of any man but I can be a fruit picker and I would certainly not want to be in the drunkard’s shoes for anything.
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Who can straighten what he made crooked?
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Depends on which one is born again. You do kinda know them by their fruits.
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That one I would have to ask God about
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Ask both the Kennedy question
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✝️ It depends on which one has had His dead spirit raised to life by Almighty God because of his faith in Christ.
THAT is the only thing that determines whether one is a Christian or not.
I personally struggled with drinking, sexual immorality, pornography, and kleptomania even AFTER I became a believer. Slowly and surely The Holy Spirit has cleansed me of all these things, now we are on to looking at attitudes, prejudices, and pride. 🙂
Truth be told, every time I think the needle in my life has moved towards holiness, the Lord shines His light a little brighter and exposes even darker shadows lurking in my heart. This could take forever!!
I have also known men who have worn robes, prayed daily, sang hymns, led church services, and presented themselves as men of God who raped children every time they had the chance. What do you think? Were they Christians?
You can duct tape beautiful juicy fruit to a dead tree but it will never bring the tree to life. But a healthy tree, loved, cared for, and pruned by a Faithful Gardener will, in its time, produce an abundance of ripe, delicious, life-giving fruit.
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all i can say is i once met a poor soul, an elderly man, hired to do barn work where i kept my horse…he slept in an old trailer and had very little…he was told he could not drink at all while he was there and was on some sort of meds—we would talk a little as i asked him how his day went and he would tell me some of the stories of how he ended up as he was….he said one thing i never forgot…..” I know that my place in heaven is assured.” that spoke volumes to me….god was letting me see one of those who were truly needy and by some fluke of whatever in their life would live what we call perhaps a nothing life, no achieved goals if he ever had any, no family, all the things that could go wrong did….I saw grace that day bigger, more powerful than i had ever imagined from that one short statement, from a man who realized he was incapable of anything before the Lord and yet had that one life line to hold on to…..he left one day suddenly and have never seen him again.
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You better worry about yourself if you’re going to ask people to bet on who you think is a christian. If both claim Jesus as their saviour then He is, period. Maybe you’re the so called Christian. It’s by faith alone, the works will follow in God’s time as He transforms the person
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Why on Earth would I be a gambler?
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I know a pastor by who was in the second category but he was lost. A lot of lost Christians fit the second category. They work so hard to prove they’re saved, they’d be the last people you’d suspect of being lost.
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Smacks of the Pharisee and the publican situation that Jesus narrated about.
From the outside, it is pretty obvious upon whom your money should be but since salvation is God’s doing, I will leave it to him, but pray for both.
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Neither.
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I’d be more confident about both of them than I would about the observer trying to take money on bets.
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I will go after the first man. He could be the lost son or lost coin or lost sheep
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James 2:18 (KJV) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
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If they both truly believe the gospel in Their heart both are saved. Remember both are dependent on jesus
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Bless are the poor in spirit.
I go with the first -
The first guy possibly has compassion on his down-and-out friends. Maybe he visits them in hospital and in prison. Maybe he gives them some of his food and clothes out of compassion. Not because the Church says so. And not to soothe conscience seared by wealth and riches. Maybe, when he does pray, he asks God for mercy. I have personal, close friends like this, and they are dedicated atheists.
The second guy has probably never set foot in a prison or hospital to visit somebody who’s not his family. It’s likely that he tithes to soothe his conscience, and he’s never given food or clothes to the needy, or volunteered at a soup kitchen. When he prays, he asks God to bless his finances.
He’s also the one most likely to go on missionary journeys over land and sea to bring back converts and make them twice-as-much sons of hell as what he is himself.Which one of the above would be justly rewarded by a Righteous and Merciful God?
(“Lord Lord! Didn’t we perform miracles and cast out demons in Your Name…?”
You know the rest) -
The actual problem here, is we believe we have the right to judge either of their lives, and there is only one judge.
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Which one has cried out for mercy and is now living a life of genuine holiness?
Second one I think -
Trump. 😉
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Only God can read our Hearts. He is the Lover of our Souls. We should never assume to know the intimacy that others share with Christ based upon externals. Consider the Pharasies and Sadduces.
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Potentially both or neither. Which Jesus are they witnessing about? Trinity Jesus… faith alone Jesus… you are going to hell Jesus… pope’s Jesus, etc.?
Is the first guy being falsely accused by the various renditions of the second… perhaps for actually doing the will of God?
Hmmm…
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This question (OP) is irrelevant as this is an impossible scenario and can be confirmed as being so by asking people who have encountered and received Jesus into their hearts by accepting Him as savior and making Him Lord of their lives. The Bible says we are known by our fruit. A good tree will produce good fruit and a bad tree bad fruit. Has anybody reading this OP who is a follower of Christ been led to follow Him or witnessed anybody else led to follow Him by a preacher or evangelist who is openly living a life of degradation, drunkenness and sin? The first question we will ask the evangelist/ person preaching Christ is “if you believe what you are preaching i.e. and that Jesus saves and changes lives why are you still living a debauched life?” One cannot preach Jesus and salvation with conviction without having had their lives changed by Him. Sanctification is the fruit of salvation.
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In my having been continuously taught by the Spirit who enlightens the Scriptures to me, no man can know who is saved and who is not.
Every believer is a work in progress — God’s, so although one isn’t consistently attending church assembly, has a pet bad habit, and does not witness to others that doesn’t necessarily mean that he’s not yet been reached by the gospel.
Truth may have been planted in a person and it will take time for it to grow and exhibit fruit externally.
We have to have patience for everyone. God’s timing is not man’s timing. You can’t rush one’s transformation as it doesn’t happen overnight. It’s actually a whole life process, one that will culminate on the event when “in the twinkling of an eye we shall ALL BE CHANGED.” That’s the time when we children of God will be perfected.
So, currently we still possess struggles with our person along with our choices, but we shall be shorn of them when we don a new, divine composition at the blaring of the ‘shofar’ and Christ appears in the clouds to meet us and take us ‘home’ to heaven. That’s our blessed hope. -
Just pointing out you can compare the first one to Nicodemus and the thief on the cross and you can compare the second one to the Pharisees.
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The first guy because he knows grace is free, and that any works in return for a free gift is an insult to the creator.
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God loves broken pots so I am sure He’ll make effort to reach to the drunkard and turn him into a walking testimony for God’s grace! ❤️
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1 Corinthians 6:10
nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. -
We are not saved by doing good works but by faith alone. But it is thru being saved that God uses us to do good works to help others find Him also.
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We can’t do anything on our own to overcome sin, we can come to Him as we are but the good news is He won’t leave us that way. He gives us thru His strength and ability to overcome with the help of His Spirit living in us. All we have to do is place our faith and trust in Him and He gives us that too. We can’t do anything to make Him love us more and we can’t do anything to make Him love us less.
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If we are living in sin and we say we are living in Christ, then we are liars. But we are not saved just because we do good things. We do good things because we are saved, out of thankfulness and obediance to His will, truly being lead by the Spirit, and not by our pride and the selfish self upliftingness we get in trying to be gaudy in front of people. Many will say they are christians and not be. These both may be liars. We should read the sermon on the mount about this.
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On the drunk
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