Where do we draw the line with making our personal religious beliefs enforced by the government ? Things like:
1. Homosexuality
2. Fornication
3. Pornography
4. Abortion
5. Prostitution
6. Drug/Alcohol Use
Should we as Christians want these things to be illegal? Or should we respect the seperation of Church and State and make these acts legal?
What has legislation of crimes to do with seperation of chrurch and state?
We dont tolerate or accept these… but it is not our job to oppose these. We are mandated to love everybody and everyone as we love ourselves.
If we can accept that a child in the womb is a living human being then they should have the same protections as any other human being. All religious beliefs aside, it’s logically consistent.
When it is a matter of want, we should absolutely want things that are against God to be illegal (although it should be noted that alcohol in and of itself may not be wrong… I realize this is a separate debate). We are not of this world though. Keep going on a preaching truth to those that need it. Befriend them and show genuine concern for their souls, regardless of whether they like you or not.
First of all separation church and state it is not in the Constitution neither is it in the declaration of Independence. Also if you do not want scripture to influence our laws then something else will. It doesn’t matter what anybody says if you don’t stand for something then what somebody else believes will be forced upon you. Mostly only Christians will allow other people to have their own beliefs. Do you think the devil will allow a society that is non-Christian not to enforce Christians to a go against their beliefs? You’re living in a dream world if you think somebody else’s beliefs will not be enforced upon you. The majority of people in the world are not fence-sitters. Look at all the things homosexuals are doing to Christian business owners. They are suing these Christian business owners left and right. Churches are being enforced to hire homosexuals. Churches in California are not even being allowed to speak against homosexuality. I agree we should allow people to live certain ways if they choose to, and not to enforce morality but there’s no way on Earth that somebody is not going to push their beliefs on somebody. This is especially true when it comes to homosexuality and Christians. Homosexuals are not satisfied with equal rights they want extra rights if you can’t see that you’re blind. Just listen to some of these pro-homosexual songs they sing. They call straight people losers and that they’re going to be our rulers. The bottom line is for evil to prosper good men must do nothing.
I think #4 should be outlawed and it had nothing to do with religion but there are many secular arguments against abortion that show it to be immortal.
Hate the sin, love the sinner
I think they should be legal. Just because its legal doesn’t make it right. With me saying that I will add that I am not for or support any of them though. I just have an issue with the abortion one. My wife had a ten percent chance of her and her baby living when she got pregnant, so medically speaking she had to have an abortion. So if they were illegal, she and baby would die either way.
Why Leviticus 20:13 Should Still Be Enforced,” … We call on government and police to enforce the death penalty for homosexuals, fornicators, adulterers, and the wicked.
God has instilled the power of civil government to send the police out to these LGBT freaks and adulterers and arrest them, and have a trial for them, and if they are convicted, they are to be put to death.
–approximate quote by Pastor Grayson Fritts
The Bible gives us a clear separation of the Church and the state so the Church has no right to judge the Government and the Government has no right to decide the administration of the Church coz the Church is an autonomous.
As the question is asked… Should we respect the separation of Church & state and allow it as legal., I think the Church doesn’t need to put our nose into this matter coz the country is run by a government not by the Church. Even if it was made legal it’s not a problem of the Church. The only thing we can do is, convince the person to whom we are sharing the gospel that such actd are wrong and we need to avoid it.
I’m curious what your definition is to fornication?
Very hard question, reminds me of the movie footloose.
These are worldly acts, we christians should avoid these things.
Remember Jesus said “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s. This speak to our situation now because we desire to do good in this world and yet we can’t help to want take matters into our own hand. However regardless what we do or desire what we want, Satan will use it against us. This world is heading towards tribulation and nothing in our power can stop God’s pending judgement.
God knows who is his and who he will punish. We should be focus on Jesus second coming and not indulge in this world. Remember to help those who need help regardless if the situation is against us. Do not be too adversarial when people who indulge in these practices goes against you because they are already dead in their sin. Reach out those who need to hear the good news. All we can do now is pray that God will be our salvation.
You cannot legislate morality. People have to choose what they believe, otherwise, the state could come along and make it law to be part of a government run church, pick one. This is why we are here in the country; we left that government in England. The right to exorcize the God given faith provided to every living person, to believe or not believe must never be taken away. This right along with the many other offorded to us by the US Constitution and fought for and died for by countless Americans must never be taken away.
I’m sorry but no. The Bible clearly states that we are to abstain from sexual immorality. It’s all over the Bible.
We cannot be for these things because it leads to an unholy and ungodly life that is not fruitful. We must cling to what is good
First, separation of church and state, as we know it today, is neither good, nor constitutional. It was invented by socialist liberal Democrats and forced down Americans’ throats in the 1960s to take away American freedom.
Second, to understand the American, constitutional meaning of “separation of church and state”, you have to understand Thomas Jefferson’s reason for saying it and the fact it was written in a private letter to a single religious group, The Letter to the Danbury Baptists. You must first know what the Danbury Baptists were worried about AND their question, to know why Jefferson even thought to write “there will be a separation of church and state”. Moreso, it’s again important to understand this phrase doesn’t exist in founding documents anywhere. Next, we see that the way he applies this is IN the founding documents we have on religion, which say that there can be no limits , and no laws made in the establishment of religion.
3. The only actual limit of religion is the fact of what the Danbury Baptists were asking about. The Danbury Baptists had seen religious persecution and oppression. They were especially worried that the Pope or a papal figure, or the king as head of the Anglican Church potentially, could use the govt to stranglehold other religions, as the pope had run governments in the past, and establish national religion, which would force the persecution of dissenting religions. they wanted to know that they would be free to practice their religion. Jefferson clearly stated that this would not happen because there would be a wall of separation of church and state. That was the only idea behind separation of church and state, the freedom to be as religious as you want, which includes teachers, congressmen, and national leaders, and the freedom, in all instances to express that religion, including in govt buildings and in govt funded curriculum like public schools. Those are still our Constitutional rights and they’ve been robbed from us for almost 70 years.
4. Now it’s clearly understood what separation of church and state does not mean. This does not mean that because a leader has a religious view, or voters have a religious view, that they can’t simply vote their morals, like everybody else, and create laws based on their understanding of right and wrong. We are always free to do that. Murder, prostitution, public indecency, rape, theft, and anti sexuality laws like laws against homosexuality, beastiality, and pedophilia are all religious in nature. We can’t say that some of these are allowed constitutionally just because atheists and non-believers agree with them, just like we can’t say that some are disallowed constitutionally just because non-believers don’t agree with them. The laws are created by leaders and the leaders are elected freely by the people. This means the people, AKA the voters, are using their moral compasses, religious or non-religious, to decide which leaders we want based on their campaign promises to create which laws and which policies. The only time atheists get their panties in a bunch is when THEY disagree with something that is backed up religiously. They are fine with laws against murder and pedophilia, the fact that these are backed up by religion means nothing to them, so long as they match up with what they believe. The claim that morals and laws atheists don’t agree with are unfair or disallowed is only a way to control the system by changing it from we the People, by the people for the people, to government run by the atheists for the atheists, and secular atheists get the final say. It can’t be wrong to vote your conscience just because the moral law came from a religion. Religious and non-religious alike are supposed to be free to vote whatever they want, regardless of what drives our moral compass. Don’t let atheists or agnostics try to fool you on this one. Hold your ground. Laws based in your beliefs are equally valid in a free nation as atheist beliefs.
5. Fornication is sinful, but it follows the basic pattern that God presented. It is not better than other sexual sins, but it sometimes comes so close practically to God’s plan for lifelong heterosexual marriage, that sometimes those living in sin jump straight into naturally doing it right over time. Prostitution and homosexuality, just like pedophilia, bestiality and incest, are all extreme aberrant sexual deviancy. Fornication is basically acting fake married, but being wicked in the timing and manner of the heterosexual sex.
6. Abortion is murder. Laws are on the books that say killing a mother and unborn baby is a double homicide. Roe v Wade was contradictory to Constitutional right to life AND murder laws.
7. Prohibition proved the system works. People freely elected leaders who prohibited alcohol. It was made into an amendment. We the People decided this was a bad idea. We elected new leaders and publicly protested. We the people changed the laws back with a new amendment. That shows we are more or less in charge. We made both happen. We elected leaders to start Prohibition and elected leaders to end Prohibition. If we want leaders to keep drugs illegal, we elect them if we want leaders to make certain drugs legal, we elect them. Or they put the law change on the state ballot box choices and the people vote the change directly.
The church and state were separated because they didn’t want the church to have reign over the government. But almost every person in the founding fathers and the early americas were Christian refugees running from the Catholic Church.
So, even though they were separated, the moral beliefs and actions of the Christian congress and senate established our country. I know if you read the first few chapters of Romans it distinctly goes into how the non believers choose death and a distorted view on morality.
We have to give them the choice to change to live with God, but most Christians aren’t radical enough to make an impression on those communities that have fallen away. More so, most Christians don’t know the word of God enough to have a discussion with a non believer to help them.
If missionaries can go to another country and help thousands of people be saved strictly by proclaiming the gospel, we can do it in America!!!! We have to know what the word of the Lord says and we have to have his spirit continually guiding us.
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It isn’t just about our personal religious beliefs though. While one must allow individual freedom of conscience this must be balanced against any harm caused to oneself, others and society at large.
“Separation of church and state” doesn’t exist . It’s completely unconstitutional. Thomas Jefferson wrote that phrase ONCE, in a letter to the Danbury Baptist church because they were concerned about having another government institutionalized religion like they had in Britain. Jefferson told him that there was a wall of separation between church and state, so that the government couldn’t enforce any religion and they couldn’t prohibit any religion. It’s a one-dimensional wall to keep the government out of religion. Not to keep religion out of the government. Half the founding fathers had the equivalent of seminary degrees, for crying out loud. They all wanted the Bible to be the foundation that the country was built upon.
Jefferson wasn’t even a signer of the Constitution! He was in Europe when it was written and agreed upon.
Church=ecclesia= governmental body no separation
We must understand there are two kingdoms, we are in the world but not of the world we should vote and raise the bar for morality, equality, and justice at the end of the day the world is the world.
The gospel is not about preaching hate at the same time we should be allowed to teach our community what is right and what is wrong without supporting or teach hate against anyone.
Our religious freedom should allows us to teach any homosexuality is wrong along with any form of immorality without preaching hate towards the individual who practices such behavior. Goaltins 5; & 6;
Only a heart change will stop sin
Of course we as Christians would not want these things to be legal. When you have no moral code, society will eventually come to an end, anarchy prevails, and there is no peace.
So, if government writes laws that protect the morality of society, is that a violation of the concept of separation of church and state? As under the original intent it is not.
First, the phrase seperation of church and state is not in the Constitution. The concept comes from a wrong application of the 1st Amendment. This states that the government can not establish a religion or denomination, or restrict the free exercise of religion. Our founding fathers got the idea of religious freedom from wh as t the Bible said. The idea of separation of church and state is in the Bible.
The 12 tribes of Israel became the nation of Israel. The state or government came from the tribe of Judah. The church or priesthood came from the tribe of Levi. In Leviticus there are laws saying that only the Levitical priesthood could perform the duties of priest in the temple. Th as t also meant that people from other tribes could not work in the temple, including Judah or the government. King Hezekiah tried to go in the temple and burn incence but God struck him down.
But in the Old Testament we see what kind of relationship church and state had. The state could ask advice from the church, and the church could give advice.
All nations up until the birth of America had no separation of church and state. So, if one had a differing spiritual opinion than that of the ruling government ran church, that person was quilty of treason, punishable by death.
According to the Bible, the main role of government is to restrain evil. It is to protect its citizens. These listed issues are evil, and it is God’s will and plan for government to restrain evil. Roman’s chapter 13 explains the role of government.
We’re not here to police the culture or to insist that they live by Christian moral values. As Christians we ought to be interested in bringing salt and light to the world around us.
In practice, this means avoiding demonising others at all costs, and making it clear to younger Christians that this kind of behaviour is unacceptable for a disciple, and that we are to love our neighbours at all costs, with no exceptions.
Instead, we ought to be bridge builders and peacemakers, working together with the culture and the other groups in it to try and find common ground. We should be plain and straightforward with our morals, and argue them with patience, love and kindness. And if at the end of the day we’re overruled by virtue of being a minority, we need to be patient and forgiving, and pray for change in our nations.
The Kingdom doesn’t advance by Christians coming first, or insisting on being first. The Kingdom advances when Christians come last, and when we bear out Christ’s patient, loving witness to this world.
Let’s get this straight. The “separation of church and state” idea in the letters, not law, was to protect the churches from a tyrannical govt and having a govt controlling religion.
Read the letters here, it is not a law.
https://billofrightsinstitute.org/founding-documents/primary-source-documents/danburybaptists/
The line that we draw as far as govco enforcement, is when their actions are harmful to other people in such a way that it encroaches upon their life, well being, or liberty.
Consider these things are all illegal for us according to our faith, yet we still fall into these particular sins. Making them illegal doesn’t make them go away. It’s cool to not want these things to be legal, but helps to remember whether or not it is illegal, people still have a choice to obey or disobey YHWH’s intention for His designs and disobedience does have harmful consequences.
Great question. The fundamental issue here is whether the government should be used as a means of promulgating morality. Were we a theocracy, like Israel in the OT, the answer would be yes, but we’re not, and we have a lot of bad historical examples of what happens when we give government the role of moral teacher.
That said, governments should regulate human behavior that has externalities, and abortion has clear externalities in the killing of an innocent human. The other issues are more difficult because they are pretty nuanced. For example, “homosexuality” could mean homosexual behavior, orientation, or same-sex marriage. Also, at what point do the effects of an action justify an externality instantiating? Abortion is relatively straight forward because it ALWAYS intends and results in the death of the baby. But while there’s a connection between certain social and psychological ills and single-parent households, the cause-effect chain between fornication and these ills is less clear.
Being of a more libertarian persuasion, I’m of the mind to permit behavior that doesn’t have clear externalities, so I’d say abortion, child pornography, and use of more dangerous drugs should definitely be illegal, prostitution and same-sex marriage should maybe be illegal, and the rest should be legal.
“It is our duty, as far as lies in our power, immediately to organize human society and all its institutions and organs upon a distinctively Christian basis. Indifference or impartiality here between the law of the kingdom and the law of the world, or its prince, the devil, is utter treason to the King of Righteousness. The Bible, the great statute-book of the kingdom, explicitly lays down principles which, when candidly applied, will regulate the action of every human being in all relations. There can be no compromise, The King said, with regard to all descriptions of moral agents in all spheres of activity, ‘He that is not with me is against me.’ If the national life in general is organized upon non-Christian principles, the churches which are embraced within the universal assimilating power of that nation will not long be able to preserve their integrity.” – A.A. Hodge
A theocracy works out great for believers…
You stand up for the Word of God as it is truth .
We Christians can’t control it So we are to be a light on a hill. Many things that the Greeks were into that Paul knew when he walked into the city. And yet, we are still to tell the truth. The greatest evil of today is political correctness which demands that no man is called “wrong or evil”. So now we can’t deal with their sins because we have to go through this PC crap. And it only starts fights.
No
You have created a false dichotomy really with the question the church can be seperate from the state and these things still be illegal LIKE THEY USED TO BE
The failing of Christians to ‘hold the line’ with regards to morality is largely responsible for the mess of immorality in which we currently find ourselves. If we don’t take a stand and push back, it’s going to get much much worse.
My advice would be to take care of your own sins. Their sins are between them and GOD and will someday work themselves out without your help. Who knows, maybe your walk will be just what some wretched sinner needs to repent.
Theocracies scare me…would I be of the “right” kind?
If government was based in Christianity or if government officials were educated in the ways of Christ’s these issues would not be under discussion
Drug and alcohol use is subjective good in moderation there’s good uses for it.
The rest objectively bad bad bad
Christianity doesn’t comply with evil practice.
Acts 5:28-29 (KJV) Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.
Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
Religious freedom includes the ability to preach the Word of God without compromise regardless of secular law. It is obligatory for Bible believing Christians to preach the Word of God and teach biblical morality and personal values without compromise. Tolerance of and compromise with sin of any kind is itself a sin.
What do I have to do with judging outsiders?
1 Corinthians 5:13
But when I speak with you, I will open your mouth, and you will say to them, ‘This is what the Lord GOD says.’ Let the one who listens, listen, and let the one who refuses, refuse–for they are a rebellious house.
Ezekiel 3:27
Whether it’s made legal or illegal, at the end of it, it all comes down to your own free will
If we have a voice then we need to use it to promote God’s best. We should want God’s best for everyone. I saw a comment that said their sins are between them and God and while I agree I also think that us allowing those things to be legal is denying God because we are going against His Word.
Should we and could we. Until this generation it was already expected that one in good social standing would consider any of these actions wrong with no need of a written law to forbid such things. Today there is no way that you could get the voting public to write a law affirm these actions are wrong
Referring to John Locke’s Second Treatise, the purpose of government is to enforce the Law of Nature, (moral law), to prevent the State of Nature, (mankind’s sin nature devouring each other). The Law of Nature tells us abortion, fornication, homosexual activity, fornication, pornography, prostitution and the abuse not the use of drugs and alcohol are all morally wrong, and are part of mankind’s sinful nature which lead to the State of Nature, then I believe they should all be illegal. All laws legislate morality, the question is only which morality. We should legislate the morality, the Law of Nature, not mine or yours or anyone else’s. What you find is without law there can be no freedom.
The government Jesus spoke of takes root in people’s hearts. Out of the proceeds of the heart the mouth speaks. This is why spreading the gospel is so important, because it takes root in the heart first, and then proceeds to actions. Those actions can affect every area of government, but it’s backwards to try to completely control society through government without changing hearts.
Having said that, I do believe that righteous laws are a good thing. It’s just a slippery slope when we make reforming society through laws more of a focus than reforming hearts through the gospel. The former is dependent on the latter, and the latter is the healthy root of the former.
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