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Does your god need the constants to be at a particular value in order to do what he wills? (As opposed to enforcing his will upon nature, whatever the value of the natural constants might be)

If he does, then he is not all powerful

If he does not, then the particular value that they have, is not only not evidence for his existence, but evidence of his none existence.
This because god could have enforced his will upon nature whatever the value that they might have. Being the case that there are millions of possibilities, and yet they are at the precise value that they need to be bring about our sort of universe.

Design is what we humans do because of our limitations. We have to work around nature, we are limited by it.

Are you able to imagine Jesus fermenting fruits as to produce wine?.
Of what use was the design (chemistry) when Jesus-presumably-transmuted water into wine?
What about biology when Lazarus was risen?
Of physics when he walked on water?.

What serves as evidence for your god, a man that is alive because he is healthy, or a man that like Lazarus, in spite of having spent 3 days dead lived again?.
Is it not logically inconsistent to regard the “design” of nature as evidence of your god, while at the same time, thinking of miracles (a brake in such design) in the same manner?.
And if both regular phenomena as well as irregular phenomena are suggestive of your god, is it not the case that neither could be since they render your god unfalsifiable?

(I am ware this argument does not apply to calvinists)

Discussion

24 comments

  1. Daniel Marvin says:

    Not sure I understand your question/objection. Are you suggesting that inferring a Creator from the evidence for intelligent design is incompatible with ascribing some (not all) supernatural events to the same Creator?

  2. Tristan Patchett says:

    Roman 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

    To anyone that takes the bible as truth, this should be a sufficient argument that God’s power and divinity is shown in creation.

    I don’t fully understand your question either, there was a lot of talk of values, which I think is what was throwing me off. But, if I guess correctly, you’re struggling to understand how any being can have created a world and also the exceptions to that world. Seems to me that that very fact shows God’s divinity as opposed to reducing it. It shows that God has complete and continuing control over his creation, and still effects that control at need/desire.

  3. Vic Clement says:

    The laws of nature are according to God’s will. He is not subject to them – we are. The slightest change in the design makes it impossible for life (as we know it, anyway) to exist. If we are what God wants to exist (i.e. he wanted to create mankind), there’s no reason why he would he have done it any differently.

    Furthermore, he is in fact so wise and powerful that he knows when and how to intervene and violate the laws of nature at will (i.e. miracles).

  4. Olivaire Watler says:

    I don’t think that is sound logic. God can work anyhow he chooses. If he chooses to set in place constants in no way does that imply that his power is limited. Miracles are the exception, not the rule, otherwise they wouldn’t be miracles,

  5. Max Wolfe says:

    If GOD Created all the laws of Science, Math and Nature, he is sovereign over them and exists outside of them. Therefore, He is not subject to them. Such is the very definition of supernatural: attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.
    Therefore all that exists in the natural and supernatural is evidence of his existence, and there is no evidence that exists of his non-existence. There is no way around this unless you assert the universe had no beginning and has no end, because it had to begin with a supernatural event, and if one supernatural event can exist in reality, countless ones also can exist.

  6. Dale Johnson says:

    Why do you need to know attributes of a God you do not believe created everything. You believe everything came about by accident. Am I right? It is not possible to know the mind of God no more than our pets know ours.

  7. Charles Lee Knuckles says:

    I’m at a lost to what you are trying to say?

  8. Samantha Finch-Finchley says:

    The first assertion is a misunderstanding of the nature of God and the nature of the universe and is thus an illogical supposition. But let’s just humor it for a moment, it’s along the same lines as the paradox of the stone. It’s been logically defeated many times. The rest of the OP seems to deal with the same foundational misunderstanding of the nature of God that judeo-christians believe(it makes many assumptions that are incorrect) and the nature of the universe in RELATION to the judeo-christian God. I suggest perhaps organizing the foundational logic and then forming the questions and/or assertions that the OP wants to present.

  9. John Lca says:

    We should go back to where the FIRST Atom came from?

  10. Kubowaki Julia says:

    Luis,you pretent to be smart,but in reality you are so foolish

  11. Andrew Beltz says:

    God created perfect conditions because he is a God of order. He can do whatever is consistent with His character: Chaos is not consistent with who He is.

  12. Andrew Beltz says:

    This is a perfect example of nonsense.

  13. Joao Esteves Gemal says:

    Our God determine the constants. Been there before, when the logic is twisted, p. ex. Is God powerful that he can create a triangle with four sides? etc…You can propose any stupidity.

  14. Tristan Patchett says:

    So maybe this has been covered somewhere, but I cannot seem to find it, if it is. What are these constants that you are referring to? Avogadro’s Number? e? Anyone know?

  15. Daniel Marvin says:

    I think the Christian would argue that the constants are what they are, and what they “need” to be precisely by the fiat of God.

  16. Daniel Marvin says:

    WOW! This has been a great thread — thank you all for keeping it civil and engaging. Love this! OK, I’m thinking the precise issue here is this: “The unstated premise is that there is a need for the constants to have the value that they do, if they are to being about our sort of universe.
    However, if god is all powerful, such is not the case.” THIS is simply not true, it assumes that God cannot have a purpose for using constants AND still being omnipotent. I believe many of you are trying to point out this assumption.

  17. Caleb Backholm says:

    C’mon man. You can’t even spell it right. It’s God, not god. I’ve never met anyone who believes a god designed nature.

  18. Zach Payne says:

    You can’t really use science to explain miracles as the definition of a miracle includes the fact the it goes beyond science. As for the natural order, why would God using a natural order make him not all powerful?

  19. Zach Payne says:

    Way to look at it; God made this grand design and while he is outside of the design he works within it. Like an engineer with an engine. When he acts within his design, it’s called a miracle. Same as an engineer can work inside the engine, using methods outside the engine’s capabilities to get his desired results. God just does it on a way higher scale.

  20. Francis Jesulobatemi says:

    Design is what we humans do because of our limitations?can you just listen to yourself.
    You don’t design because you are limited, you design because of you have limitless potentials and possibilities.
    and what’s this we and our stuff? to garner support and sympathy?
    Stop using high sounding words that mean nothing.

  21. Barbara Vance says:

    You state that God is needing constants. How did you come to the point of placing Him under His creation?

  22. Barbara Vance says:

    In the beginning, God created all things of the earth and the heavens.
    From the dirt God created man. Man disobeyed God and sin entered Gods paradise.
    But even before God created the earth and the heavens, even before He created man, God forknew that man would be in need of a saviour.
    Because one man rebelled purposefully against God, sin entered the world.
    In His great love and mercy, God made Jesus the atonement for man’s sin because man could not obtain Gods perfect righteousness. God loved the world so much that He gave His one and only begotten Son to suffer and die on the cross so that man could live eternally in righteousness. Being restored to God, when man accepts Gods gracious gift of Jesus, man is set right before God and only because of Jesus so that no man may boast.

  23. John Carson says:

    Your reasoning is based upon a closed system. If God is the Creator of all things, then He transcends this system and is not subject to it. This means it is not closed to God; but only to those that are within that system.

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