Serious question- God’s unconditional election: I fear calling God into…

40 comments

1. Stephen Bredehoeft says:

   March 25, 2020 at 7:45 pm

   God knows the end from the beginning. Before you were born God knew if you would trust in Him or not. You still have your free will to do as you choose but God knows the end. So He knows His elect before the foundation of the world.

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2. Arthur Adam Haglund says:

   March 25, 2020 at 7:46 pm

   I know it seems that you have been exposed to a false Doctrine commonly called Calvinism. The Bible doesn’t show anyone set aside for salvation prior to Creation.

   Reply
3. Steve Zielinski says:

   March 25, 2020 at 7:49 pm

   God would have everyone to be saved, but not all will accept the free gift. If people were predetermined for salvation, it couldn’t be a free gift. I hope that this helped you❤️

   Reply
4. Martin Burry says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:02 pm

   It’s an interesting paradox. Paul speaks of God being a potter, and like a potter creating some for noble purposes and others for ignoble. Yet it is written “all men”, as you’ve said.

   There is also a paradox with the Scriptures saying “whosoever will” will be saved and the Scripture saying “You did not choose me, I chose you.”

   I figure the paradox (not contradiction) may be found as a matter of perspective. When I came to Christ I decided to – no one was making me. Yet looking back, I can see now it was God who gave me spiritual life and faith and repentance as gifts that drew me to Him, the way a bucket is pulled up from a well to the one drawing the rope. Before I believed I read in the front of the Narrow Gate, “Whosoever will, come.” Looking back, I can read the inscription on the other side of the gate, “You did not choose me, but I chose you.”

   Perhaps it may be something along the same lines for your question.

   Reply
5. Stephen Arbuthnot says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:21 pm

   His will be done yes this is true. Before man’s temptation by the serpant, Adam wouldn’t of new he was full and completely Ritcheous, we were God’s very own creation.
   What was going on in heaven though is a different matter. Satan is man’s true test and yet God as we no answers us in spirit. Asks us for faith and love.
   God’s on all our sides in this world, all we have to do is have faith.
   So id say yes we’re all chose. It’s just harder now than ever to keep our eyes fixed to him on this path if live set before us

   Reply
6. Will Hess says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:23 pm

   I’d encourage you to look up Leighton Flowers who goes into this in depth.

   Reply
7. Freddy Jocksand Diaz says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:24 pm

   Excellent question. This is when we need to go to the originals and understand the language and context in which those passages where written.

   In most cases the term for predestined or elected has been translated a bit vaguely, and in some cases it is because in the original language, those terms are ambiguous and may be given different meanings according to circumstances. In the original hebrew, there were no vowels, no commas and no accents, these were added later.
   When reading the whole Bible we must then apply certain principles of theology that are intrinsic to His ontological attributes. God is all knowing omnipresent, His word cannot be contradicted by himself in a different era because He says about himself that He is the same yesterday, today and foreves, His word endures for forever and that he keeps his promises. He doesn’t change. Whit this knowledge about God we then must apply the hermeneutics tool of ” Unity of Message”… there is a main message in each Testament and in each section of the Bible. We can understand God’s word by always referring to His covenant and the purpose of the covenant.

   In this way we know the following:

   1. from the beginning God wanted all humanity to be saved and he provided in Hen 3:15 a protoevangellum. The first reference that all humanity will have a savior descendant of the woman.

   2. We also know that since the beginning of creation God already intended for humanity to have free will and to be redeemed by a Savior which God himself would provide.

   3. We know then that since the terms can be translated either
   … we have been elected from the beginning for good deeds…. OR… good deeds have since the beginning been chose for our salvation.

   I at least conclude that what God has intended since the beginning is

   A. Providing a Savior for his master plan of salvation.
   B. Time does not limit him, so God knew from the beginning who would be receptive of the gospel and become a beleiver, so He creates moments for people to find God.
   C. Because in people’s free will, some reject and prefer their evil doings, part of their punishment for their stubbornness is hardened hearts that lead them to their own demise.
   D. Our Good God did not condemned some to hell and elect some to salvation arbitrarily. No. Everyone had a chance to listen and accept the gift of salvation, but only some did freely accept that grace, repented of their sin and chose to fulfill those good deeds God chose them for that were set from the beginning. Because at the beginning, God created all perfect and without sin and we were to abound in good amazing deeds.
   E. Satan took advantage of men’s free will to make then fall from Grace, corrupting life of humanity and Earth. But that didn’t trump God’s original plan. God intended that way so that here on Earth, we become found by God, return to Him and to become all the things God had since the beginning chosen us to be.

   Reply
8. Jonathan Patterson says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:32 pm

   Pray this helps my brother, I was struggled with this as well…

   This is an apparent contradiction but all who choose of their freewill to get saved are predestined before the foundation of the world… unconditional election is false… God will always seem to be a paradox… His ways and thoughts are higher than ours

   https://youtu.be/MnYvnAtLVqg

   Reply
9. Rockin Red says:

   March 25, 2020 at 8:44 pm

   Whether or not some go to be in heaven or hell either way it gives glory to God. We cannot understand Gods thoughts.

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10. James Clark says:

    March 25, 2020 at 8:46 pm

    OK, this question is really hard. you know cain and abel rite? could have cain chosen not to kill abel? Think with me here I am asking these questions because I am going somewhere with this, could have cain resisted not to kill abel?

    Reply
11. Monique Davis says:

    March 25, 2020 at 8:56 pm

    He predetermined the whole wide world. God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son. And whosoever believes SHALL be saved.

    WE drop the ball. And for those who profess Christianity, MANY don’t seek God. They fall in line with lies passed down generation after generation. So you have chattel slavers calling themselves CHRISTIANS, but treating people worse than animals because they DID NOT know Christ. A lot of them were following the Catholic Church. They okayed slavery.

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12. Abas Rahmat says:

    March 25, 2020 at 8:57 pm

    Surely, we all can see a crime committed here and There. Thus hoping that, There is a law to curb that crime.

    Similarly speaking, a Bible is a precautionary message, that states, the way of living. That is, you can be lazy, or greed, or drunkened and or, violence, it is for you all to do.

    But, God Will set aside the people, that are living according to His standard, and hence; these other worldly creatures can see the difference between, a holy people and those who are not godly people.

    It is a choice of living. Christ do not came for just any person, but He came to save the sinner, and to show them, a freedom, of living free of sin.

    Reply
13. Luap Iyasi says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:11 pm

    The problem here is not necessarily understanding the language and context but in the failure to rightly divide the Word of truth as guided in 2Tim 2.15. The issues of election , chosen and calmed out from become clear as day.

    Reply
14. Adam Floyd says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:26 pm

    God wants all men to be saved. Anyone who tells you otherwise simply denies scripture. They can say it ain’t so until they are blue in the face. It doesn’t matter.

    They are forcing scripture to comport with their systematic.

    Reply
15. Leonardi Djuhari says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:27 pm

    Can I persuade you to see from a different perspective?

    1. God created man to have a relationship with him. Fellowship, because if man must love God, a.k.a no choice, then the its not a relationship, but dictatorship. No more than a machine rigidly following the master. Hence, the freedom of choice.

    2. Man fell, we sin, and God being a Holy God cannot be with us, thus the separation, man leaving Eden. The effect of sin is death, degradation of cells, spiritual death, decay throughout all creation. I’ll go even as far as moral and ethical decay.

    3. Since God and sin cannot co-exist, sin must be wiped out, hence the plan for the son of man (2nd Adam) to come and pay for the sins, whilst imputing his righteousness to us. One life can pay for one life, but what about something eternal? It can pay for, everything.

    4. But lets jump back a little bit. God so loved the world, that He gave His only Son, which will come to earth from the descendants of Adam and Eve. Hence Adam > Noah > Abraham and etc.
    Even here we can see God’s faithfulness, His patience. All the patriarchs failed in one degree or another, Abram and Sarai, David and Betsheba> Solomon and many pagan wifes (hence idolatry of foreign gods) > in 1 Kings and 2 Kings it degenerates even more.
    There are many verses showing God’s patience with us, Hosea 4, Ezekiel 16, and many more. This is a Holy God suffering our disrespect to Him, not honoring Him or giving Him the glory that is rightfully His.

    5. Lets have a look at God’s holiness. Isaiah received a vision that shows angels with 3 sets of wings, 2 to cover their eyes, 2 to cover their legs and 2 to fly. They float and cast crowns before God. Eyes are covered because they can’t handle His Holiness, feet covered because it was not right to show God their feet. Similar to Moses’ experience with the burning bush huh? The take off your sandals scene for the ground you are on is holy ground. This is a level, a concept of Holy that is alien, far above imagination, too much that it can kill. Isaiah, Hagar, Israel, and anyone who has seen even a little of it got freaked out.

    6. So seeing us and all humanity as we are, with parents killing their child, people caring about themselves more than others, crimes happening, history repeating itself. Think Hitler, Stalin, Tian An Men massacre, Herod’s infanticide, Caligula and more. We cannot deny that we are screwed up. This is sin and sin, to a very Holy God, is unbearable.

    7. I will affirm then with you, that we are totally depraved, hence we deserve hell. We were created for fellowship but we fell instead. God being merciful is this, that He chose some to be saved at all. That he chose Jacob not Esau. Pharaoh was hardened. To have some saved is already amazing. To have them saved by the payment of His own Son.. This is crazy and mindblowing.
    The cross is the greatest evil, the greatest injustice, that a perfect unblemished sinless Son of God must die for His creation.

    8. Finally the potter has the right to do what he wants, some for good and some for bad. I’d rather ask, why God would you save us when we deserve to be nuked?
    The act of creation, to experience life itself is a gift, rather than not to exist or feel at all, yet (not saying you yeah) some people would rather raise their fist at God in rebellion. Refusing to give the Creator His rightful glory.

    Sorry for the long post ?

    Reply
16. Arthur Adam Haglund says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:32 pm

    If you want a full lesson on predetermination, election, and predestination, the most complete and concise one is Jeremiah 18:1-10.

    God is speaking, so no need for anyone to put in his two cents worth. the Prophet tells us that this is God speaking. So you either accept it and bow to it, or you are unimportant in the Conversation and a liar to claim seeking truth.
    This applies to all, including me. I use strong language but I do so to show the importance of the situation.

    God gives a ‘pre’ determination and ‘pre’ destination. God shows his election of Israel.

    Being predestined, or predetermined does not mean that you end up there.

    Reply
17. Paul Gray says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:48 pm

    It is the plan of salvation that is predestined, we do have free will, there are many places in scripture that warn the believer to hold fast their profession, to fight the fight, to resist evil and temptation. Even in revelations the churches are warned to return to their first love or their names would be blotted out of the book of life. Choose this day whom you will serve! God knew that man could and probably would rebel and He provided a way to repent and return. If you choose to follow Jesus you become one of the elect!

    Reply
18. Herb Van Schoick says:

    March 25, 2020 at 9:51 pm

    Please understand that in adam all die and in christ all the elect are made alive. He did not create men to be condemned but sent his son to save his people from their sins… many struggle with these doctrines…I found my greatest help from paul in Roman’s and jesus in the gospels.

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19. Doug Taylor says:

    March 25, 2020 at 10:01 pm

    A rightly dividing brother told this to me once, ” there is no selection in election”. Don’t get caught up in the hows and whys just know that if you are in Christ today your destination has already been predetermined.

    Reply
20. Charles Kaminski says:

    March 25, 2020 at 10:49 pm

    That’s a good one,I like the way R.C. Sproul answers that,so deep,and I also would like to read Chosen by God wrote by him,he’s probably the best to answer that,that I have heard.

    Reply
21. James King says:

    March 25, 2020 at 10:50 pm

    God in the beginning lays out what he required from man by his grace …Gen 1:26. God said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness and let them have dominion over the fish of the seA, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle and over ALL the earth , and over even every creeping thing they creep the upon the earth. If Cod say it and it is recorded He meant it. He had a great spiritual relationship with His man in the garden , and be sure He is God , He knew everything about everything . For God is all seeing , all knowing , and all powerful . Before He said, that is spoke even a word , He knew the Becky to the end . He was satisfied with the END results and then He spoke. He knew Adam would sin In the garden.
    God did not create many people, He created one man and in that man , he created make and female Gen 1:27. He blessed adam(male and female ) gen 1:28.
    God created a spirit man with a body . Man reproduced and procreated other men.
    The descendant s of Adam we’re sinners, for they were born sin , and the iniquity of Adam , theirs and our Father. They were men who God loved but whom were estranged from Him because of sin, the fallen nature of man. Not Gods doing but the descendants of Adam.
    and yet God choose certain men to serve him in the work of restoration of the relationship with ma. And God. This commentated with the advent of Jesus Christ who prophesied by Jewish prophets of his coming for hundred of years.
    It has always been the will of God that all men are to be saved and none lost…
    My God bide his time til he can send forth his only begotten Son(being like him ) to be the sacrificial lamb to be slain for he many once and For all (mankind). God needed a body , that body was Jesus. Jesus recieve the human form from Mary. And the Spirit of God being the Father. God uses various persons and symbols and types to bring and reach the Jews til Jesus came. Jesus was and is the gatekeeper of the old to the new. Now God in Christ being the gatekeeper did that which He really wanted to and needed to but could not like He wanted tim Jesus came. Jesus did whAt He God spoke, prophesied would happen in light of Adams’ sin.
    So with Jesus , paying the price no man no could pay for their soul salvation, for all men were lost since the days of Adam inn the garden. Now in Christ, that debt will be paid. Now God in Christ will be working the ministry of reconciliation toward mankind seeking to save them by their individual submission to Jesus Christ as savior and Lord .
    Whomever received and accepted Jesus Christ and repent of their sins would be saved. Biblical teaches , whomever callers upon the name of the lord shall be saved.” That name and that person is Jesus , Son of the living God . The elect are them who are born again of the spirit in Jesus , having repented, believing . Rom10:9-10 show us how this occurs.
    When we are sAved. We are made members of Gods holy family for we are filled with the Holy Spirit being Gods spirit . Thus the relationship which was now is Again. And we are maintain by the Holy Spirit within and Faith in God and Christ. We become the elect in comparison to all others who have not done so. God lost His man and the authority over the earth once but not again. This time it would be different . So the need for Jesus . Man need to identify with someone like man. Thus Jesus. God has the right to choose whomever He wills be cause He is the. Creator and giver of life .
    Whatever He does is right and just even if it seems not so with man, us. He never makes a mistake nor ever is in error. He is perfect. He cannot do imperfect things. That his nature . Perfection.
    Let the word explain and bring clarity to the word. God is never confused based on what He has said and what was done . One thing to remember. God gave man “free will.” Meaning every man can do whatever they want to , even to say “ no” to God. So then God will not and cannot invade and or override mans will. Man must submit his will to God . Then the show began. God do not kill no one . People actions and deeds if sinful bring about judgement and that may mean death. Pray and ask the Holy Spirit for greater clarity and clarification.

    Reply
22. Alan White says:

    March 25, 2020 at 11:38 pm

    I have to say that I believe in freewill and that we are misunderstanding Pauls words. I can only go back to Jesus words to the Jews, this is what he said to them. You search the scriptures because you think that in them is eternal life, and yet they speak of me and yet you refuse to come to me that you might have life!!! So here Jesus expressly proves that it is an act of our freewill not to come to him and be saved. Added to that are other scriptures like you have mentioned God would have all men to be saved this is written also by Paul who wrote the election and predestination verses. There is only one conclusion we are reading into what Paul wrote about these things wrongly other wise he is in contradiction with himself and with Jesus himself. Those that God foreknew are those that God saw would chose him would call upon his name. God not being limited by space and time saw who would accept his message after all God has also told us what will happen in the future in the book of revelation and throughout the bible God told of events that would happen before they did, God has already seen the beast being cast into the lake of fire. Those that God foreknew would chose him he chose in him before the foundation of the world and called them and saved them and predestined them to be conformed to the image of his Son. Remember it says anyone that calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved ad this is true they will be, but God already knew who will do that, not because he reprogrammed them or made them to do so. And those fitted for destruction are those that God saw would not chose him, therefore they have fitted themselves for destruction. Does not the potter have the right to make one vessel to honor and another dishonor, yes indeed he does and he did make both this does not mean he pre-programmed them but just what it says he made them both. When Jesus wept over Jerusalem were these crocodile tears?? “Oh Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing???.

    Reply
23. Deborah Ferella says:

    March 25, 2020 at 11:40 pm

    God is all knowing. Even before He created the universe, people and Earth He saw everything in His Mind the way it would be. He gave humans free will even before He created them He knew who would believe and not believe in Him. The Bible says God knows the end from the beginning. He doesn’t choose who gets saved and who rejects Him. He just seen ahead of time who would. And because of the ones He saw that would choose Him it was worth it to Him to go through the process of creation. God loves us and wants to share His Life with us for eternity. It’s worth it to Him for those of us who do receive Him thru His Son Jesus even at the expense of those who won’t. God desires that all come to Him but He also knows that all won’t. He does not cause them to reject Him but gives everyone free will to chose. Even if God has intervened for example in the case of Pharroh where He had hardened his heart, God already knew ahead of time that Pharroh wasn’t going to believe in Him anyway. Another example is Job and how God allowed Satan to destroy his family, property, and health. He knew even these terrible things wouldn’t detour Job to doubt in God’s goodness because God saw it all happen before hand.

    Reply
24. Bill Brannon says:

    March 26, 2020 at 12:44 am

    I don’t believe any part.of Calvinism. It is inconsistent with the very nature and good character of God. Can we call Hom just if (I don’t believe this but from the Calvinist point of view) He creates people to go to Hell and punishes them for doing what He created them to do?

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25. Tom de Lacey says:

    March 26, 2020 at 2:45 am

    Bill your’ll be posting next that you don’t believe God destroyed all mankind with the Flood – apart from 8 chosen people. “Its inconsistent with the very nature and good character of God” You finish up in unbelief. Believeing in another God.

    Reply
26. Floyd Vaz says:

    March 26, 2020 at 6:30 am

    It is easy to understand this when you know that God is sovereign and has knowledge about everything and we are not sovereign and don’t have knowledge about many things, yet. In other words, the creation from beginning to end is His story and we have our brief parts to play but we are not the whole story. In His story, He does what He pleases but at the same time we are absolutely responsible for the decisions and actions we take. Try wrapping your head around that one. That happens because He is God and we are not. Hence when God wants everyone to be saved it is because His general desire or will is offered to every member of His creation. But does every member of His creation even care? And, as to the elect, those elected are all scripted. They’ve always been, but only rvealed to the world at different times in history. If there’s anyone you can trust to accomplish the work He started out to do even before the creation of the world, only He can do it. Within that script was the real sacrifice of His son which means to God, this has always been serious business. Love is extended to those He apportions it to and Justice will come to those who rightly deserve it and who have rejected His freely offered general grace.

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27. Mark Walker says:

    March 26, 2020 at 8:38 am

    God is not bound by time or space he made them both. Just because he knows the choices we will make does not mean that we do not have free will to make them. And even if God did choose some and not other solely of his own will , he is the creator and he has that right we are his to with as he pleases. He loves us and wants us all to be redeemed and saved from his just wrath , he allows us free will to choose. But he is just and his wrath is coming. A just judge must punish the guilty so Christ came to take that upon himself in our place. But all have sinned and have made wrong choices it is mercy that he allows us to repent and trust in Christ.

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28. Keith Schuster says:

    March 26, 2020 at 9:24 am

    Simple answer: God is eternal and exists outside of time. He has already seen all from the beginning of time(4th day) until the end of time. He already saw and knew who would choose to believe in Christ for their salvation. (It may be better to view individuals as souls, opposed to actual Joe Smith or Sally Jones). God knew which souls would choose. He subsequently formed/planned the lives those souls would live.
    As far as God not wanting anyone to go to hell…not sure, but I think scriptures that talk about God not wanting one to fall is in direct reference to the predestined, not to all mankind in general. Please give scripture that might be contrary to this. The disciples even asked Jesus why he spoke in riddled parables . Jesus replied “To you it has been given to know the [f]mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that

    ‘Seeing they may not see,
    And hearing they may not understand.’

    Pretty clear that not everyone is meant to fully understand and be shown Gods plan if salvation

    Reply
29. Brian Randolph says:

    March 26, 2020 at 11:36 am

    I had to choose myself whether I was going to follow Him. Jesus even said those that say Lord Lord, have I not profiside in Thy name, or cast demons in Thy name and He will say I never knew you. Powerful stuff! People are choosing not alot more than choosing ‘so’.

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30. Brian Randolph says:

    March 26, 2020 at 11:39 am

    Think about Jonah. He had a destination from God but took his own path. Food for thought. Even David took matters into his own hands through his life

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31. John Eksted says:

    March 26, 2020 at 4:16 pm

    God’s ways are far above my ways,His thoughts far above my thoughts. In whatever he does he will be found upright and just.

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32. Sebastiaan de Roode says:

    March 26, 2020 at 4:20 pm

    Macy Carolina Watch this one plz! https://youtu.be/_A5A8XBRVbw

    Reply
33. Sebastiaan de Roode says:

    March 26, 2020 at 4:21 pm

    Romans 9 and Proverbs 16:4 gives you also an idea!

    Reply
34. Toni Armstrong says:

    March 27, 2020 at 1:59 am

    God knows all things because he is the beginning and the ending. He knows who are his sheep and his sheep hear his voice. Many are called but few are chosen because many are not obedient that isn’t God’s fault but the fault lies with the individual. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

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35. Lober Bornales says:

    March 27, 2020 at 4:18 am

    Macy Carolina Rom 5:12 speaks of man’s decision to disobey God. What is the punishment? Death(both physical and spiritual). But spiritual death our God is more concerned. Man chose to receive God’s judgment in hell, not God wants his creation to go there.

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36. Sebastiaan de Roode says:

    March 27, 2020 at 4:26 am

    This is simply not true. Salvation has ZERO to do with human beings! God desires mercy over judgement yes, but there’s ALSO glory in a burning sinner in hell. This is a display of Gods righteousness, holyness, and judgement! ONLY those who are self righteous will NEVER see or understand that! Jesus is also there when condemned sinners are burning! Why do people always love to talk about Gods love, but NEVER about his wrath and the fact he destroyed the whole human race except a few people during the flood!?!? You guys really don’t see the hypocracy?

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37. Toni Armstrong says:

    March 27, 2020 at 4:41 am

    Following our own wills the result is seperation from God and eventually death. God came so that we may know him and once reconciled and having a relationship restored with our God we can by his Spirit do his will which leads to life eternal and not to die.

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38. Alan White says:

    March 27, 2020 at 10:56 pm

    Listen to Jesus You search the scripture for you think in them you have eternal life, but the scripture speak of me and yet you refuse to come to me that you might have life!!!! Here we see that men have freewill to refuse Christ from the lips of Jesus.

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39. Alan White says:

    March 27, 2020 at 10:59 pm

    This might help explain some other things https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfZrVOEfvhQ&fbclid=IwAR27l3QKIo1tCF9qJtnC8DIQ3hxEQpuX7VzSgclXrqAmbKRHcbyU8P7vtug

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