Author

In short, here are some succinct differences to remember about the two events:

At the Rapture, Jesus comes for His saints. At the Second Coming He comes with His saints.

At the Rapture Jesus doesn’t come all the way to earth. At the Second Coming, His feet touch down on the Mount of Olives and He will reign on earth.

At the Rapture, Jesus comes with a blessing for His saints. At the Second Coming He brings judgment for those who have rejected Him.

The Rapture can happen at any moment, but we know the Second Coming happens seven years later.

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT JESUS WILL RETURN

I don’t think that I need to go to great lengths to back up the idea that the Bible says Jesus will return. Some lengths but not great ones.

• Matthew 24 and 25 are an overview from Jesus Himself. • Luke 21:27, “Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.” (Jesus speaking) • John 14:3, “And if I [Jesus] go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.” • Acts 1:11, “…This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Angels at Jesus’ ascension) • Acts 7, Stephen’s survey of the Old Testament and the pattern of God’s representative being rejected first then accepted later, just like Jesus. • Revelation 19:11-21, Jesus returning on a white horse with armies. Now, here is the kicker. The reason that we have to ask the question is this: The above commonly quoted passages are not all talking about the same single event. To misquote Inigo Montoya from The Princess Bride, “You keep on using that verse. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

OF RAPTURES AND RETURNS

Again, going to some lengths but not great lengths, here is how I see it. The rapture is not the same thing as the Second Coming. The reason it is confusing is because they both involve Jesus coming back, but in different ways and for different reasons.

THE RAPTURE IS A REUNION

So much to say, so little space. Please study this out for yourself. Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 4:17 says, “Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.” I believe this is what Jesus is talking about in John 14:3. I believe this is what the angels are referring to in Acts 1:11. I believe it is what Paul is also talking about in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 when the dead are resurrected, but the living are “changed.” The living skip death and go right to resurrection bodies. When will the rapture happen? We don’t know. It could happen at any time. There is no sign or event that has to happen before the rapture happens. That isn’t the case for the Second Coming. But the rapture isn’t the event referred to when it comes to knowing the day and hour. The only thing that we know in terms of timing for the rapture is that it happens before the events that lead up to the Second Coming. Call it pre-trib, or pre-70th week of Daniel (see studies on Daniel 9:24-27), or pre-Revelation 6-19, this timeline makes the most sense to me when all the relevant scriptures are taken into account. The rapture is a reunion.

THE RETURN IS A REIGN

Jesus is referred to as the Son of Man, “…Coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory,” (Matthew 24:30), and “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory” (Matthew 25:31). From Luke 21:27, quoted above, and this Second Coming to rule and reign, no one knows the day or the hour when this is going to happen. And yet, this is the event that people claim to know when it will happen.

By my count in these two chapters of Matthew alone, Jesus says no less than four times that no one knows when this will happen (Matthew 24:364244 and Matthew 25:13). He helps to make this clear with a number of parables. One thing that is clear is that the Second Coming, the return of Jesus, is to reign.

THEN WHY DID JESUS MAKE SUCH A BIG DEAL?

If no one can know when Jesus will return with power and great glory, then why did Jesus go so over the top with all of the signs we are to look for regarding His return? Why did He warn us not to be deceived, tell us what the deceptions look like, and even point out the specific prophecy of the “abomination of desolation” (read Daniel 9-12) as a major landmark before His return? Because Jesus knows that we are prone to spend too much time trying to figure out when He will do what we want Him to do, that we won’t spend enough time doing the things He has called us to do.

REPRESENTATIVES AND REPRESENTATIONS

What has Jesus called us to do? I think Acts 1:4-8 illustrates our situation best. Jesus is trying to tell His disciples that the Holy Spirit is going to come and equip them for ministry as promised. But all that they are interested in is when Jesus will restore the kingdom to Israel, also as promised. Sound familiar? Jesus has to redirect their focus, and ours, back to what we are supposed to be about.

“It is not for you to know times or seasons for which the Father has put in His own authority. But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth” (Acts 1:7-8, NKJV). We tend to make this a one-or-the-other situation. Either we should forget about being out there in that dirty, old world of sinners and watch for the signs of the times, or we should forget about all that end times bologna and get busy feeding, clothing and sheltering people. The Biblical reality, the Jesus reality, is that it is both. We are to watch for the signs so that we have a general idea of the little time we have left to be witnesses, to be representatives and representations of Jesus, to a lost and hurting world of sinners in need of the Savior.

WHAT DAY AND HOUR SHOULD WE BE CONCERNED WITH?

According to Jesus, knowing the day or the hour isn’t important. It isn’t even the point. The point, according to Jesus in Matthew 24-25, is this: • Be ready, unlike those in the days Noah. • Be faithful, unlike the self-serving servant. • Be wise, unlike the unprepared wedding party. • Be responsible, unlike the fearful and lazy servant. In other words, be a student of God’s word while being a servant of God’s people with the power of God’s Spirit. The better we do that, the more people will be prepared for that future unknown day and hour. For now, the day that we should be concerned with is today. The hour is now. “Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation” (2 Corinthians 6:2). Who will you represent Jesus to today?

Discussion

123 comments

  1. Troy Day says:

    note the difference Martin Asare Where most post-tribbers err is the mix and match of the rapture and the 2nd coming as ONE event Once you realize Paul explains them from the perspective of 2 separate chronological points split by 7 yrs of tribulation, everything with the OT prophetic timeline will become clear

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Name one place the pre-trib rapture is plainly stated and labeled in scripture. You can’t. It is an inferred doctrine based upon your presumed beliefs being correct.

    • Craig O’Dell As is “Trinity” ???? Unless you can name a place in scripture where it’s labelled “trinity”………..

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Cathy Hoven Wood What relevance does that have to do with Pre-Tribulation Rapture? The Trinity, which means three, is a modern day reference to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and you can show that all three exists in both the OT and NT. There are zero scriptural passages describing a rapture before the tribulation such that you can show it exists.

    • Craig O’Dell This was your anti pre-trib arguement. I circled your specifics. Again- I ask where is the word/label “Trinity” in scripture.

      Your follow up arguement can be used by any pre-tribber. I think you understand the point of my question.

      Your arguement doesnt stand “specifically” as there are TONS of “terms/labels” that Christians adhere to, but are not in the bible.

      Some examples: 1)Infant damnation 2)Irrisistable grace 3)Purgatory
      4) 2 graces
      5) 2 calls
      6)2 wills
      7)Reprobation
      8)Unconditional ection to individual salvation
      9)2 dedintions of the words “any/all/world
      10)Superlapsarianism
      11)Pre-faith regeneration
      12)Eternal Conscious Torment

      Catch my drift, yet? #moderndayrefrences

      I realize the term “trinity” is not in scripture. Yet I still believe it. It is a term made up to describe years of research and collective teachings, from the bible as a WHOLE, given O/N testament passages.

    • Troy Day says:

      Craig O’Dell The connection IS that you said the word rapture is NO in the BIBLE neither is the word Trinity, but you still believe it This parallel comparison is NOT a good one FOR in fact the word rapture – Gr Harpazo, Lat Rapeo is in the rapture many many times to indicate exactly this – garb, take away, snatch, rapture PLS see my exegetical example that answers your concerns here Feel free to ask if you dont understand https://www.facebook.com/groups/eschatology.end.times/permalink/1694498500727574/

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Cathy Hoven Wood Your offer no counter-argument. You just change the topic! There is no reason, logic, nor support in scripture for your argument that is why you resort to your strategy of deflection. These superficial modern day labels is not evidence for a pre-tribulation rapture argument and is an incoherent method of argument. You refuse to deal with the issue head-on.
      And, most of theological creeds you list are not biblically based. They are traditions brought into Christian theology from other religions.

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Troy Day My argument is not about whether the word “rapture” appears in the bible. I know its origin. Your argument does not explain nor describe anything pre-tribulational about the rapture you support. I have no interest reading anything written outside this blog–not interested in your links. You are not able to present any plain and clearly written scriptural evidence for a rapture that is pre-tribulational.

    • Troy Day says:

      Craig O’Dell Yes I am aware you comment without reading the actual OP I simply forwarded you to a discussion we already had largely addressing your verbal concerns You asked for a passage and you got one It’s too bad you got no proof against it to discuss hence your comment HOWEVER 1 Thessalonians 4:16 explained for rapture antagonists 1Th. 4:15 Τοῦτο γὰρ ὑμῖν λέγομεν ἐν λόγῳ κυρίου, ὅτι ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι εἰς τὴν παρουσίαν τοῦ κυρίου οὐ μὴ φθάσωμεν τοὺς κοιμηθέντας· 16 ὅτι αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ, καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ καὶ οἱ νεκροὶ ἐν Χριστῷ ἀναστήσονται πρῶτον, 17 ἔπειτα ἡμεῖς οἱ ζῶντες οἱ περιλειπόμενοι ἅμα σὺν αὐτοῖς ἁρπαγησόμεθα ἐν νεφέλαις εἰς ἀπάντησιν τοῦ κυρίου εἰς ἀέρα· καὶ οὕτως πάντοτε σὺν κυρίῳ ἐσόμεθα. Spent some time looking over the exegetical history from John Calvin to J. Weima[1].

      He employs the term κελεύσματος, (shout,) and afterwards adds, the voice of the archangel, by way of exposition, intimating what is to be the nature of that arousing shout—that the archangel will discharge the office of a herald to summon the living and the dead to the tribunal of Christ. John Calvin
      Paul is invoking an eschatological – apocalyptic scenario where 98% of the scenario is left to be filled in by the reader. Not sure what can be assumed about the Thessalonian’s familiarity with Second Temple Apocalyptic literature but that isn’t the problem. Paul invokes the scenario as if they were familiar with it. In the apocalyptic literature divine commands are often delivered by a subordinate agent, for example the opening of the seals in the Apocalypse where The Lamb opens the seals but a command is given by one of the living beings: Rev. 6:1 Καὶ εἶδον ὅτε ἤνοιξεν τὸ ἀρνίον μίαν ἐκ τῶν ἑπτὰ σφραγίδων, καὶ ἤκουσα ἑνὸς ἐκ τῶν τεσσάρων ζῴων λέγοντος ὡς φωνὴ βροντῆς· ἔρχου. J. Weima[1] disagrees, he thinks that αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος nails down ὁ κύριος as the agent of κελεύσματι. I don’t follow that. ἐν κελεύσματι is an attendant circumstance. The pronoun αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος draws attention to identity of the agent in the main verb καταβήσεται ἀπ᾿ οὐρανοῦ. Ran across a somewhat tangential observation about the constituent order in this passage. αὐτὸς ὁ κύριος is a point of departure followed by a long marked focal constituent ἐν κελεύσματι, ἐν φωνῇ ἀρχαγγέλου καὶ ἐν σάλπιγγι θεοῦ in the pre-verbal slot

    • Craig O’Dell I didn’t change the topic ? You said pre-trib wasn’t “labelled” in scripture. That’s your arguement and opposition. I asked: “where is ?Trinity? labelled in scripture? THOUSANDS of Christians find the pre-trib rapture in scripture.

      If YOU don’t- thats a presupposition you’ve placed on scripture. Just like you accused those who hold to that view ?

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Cathy Hoven Wood I have brought no presuppositions to this argument. Accusing? How about asking for evidence and getting the run around from you. Okay, so if THOUSANDS of Christians find the a pre-trib rapture in scripture. Where? What verse is it mentioned? I have asked for evidence and you have provided no evidence to support your position. And, the absence of evidence for your position means it does not exist! ?

  2. “but we know the Second Coming happens seven years later.”
    I would argue there’s no indication for this in the Bible.

    • Jessé Beaupré I never bother myself with mainstream ideas anymore. I stopped like 10years ago bothering about christian books on the subject authored by popular authors.

      Ive only been going with scripture ever since then.

    • Steve Snyder says:

      Thabang Kotelo you’re so correct, know our bible ignore doctrines of men

    • Troy Day says:

      Jessé Beaupré The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51–52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
      The Second Coming will happen when Jesus Christ ​returns to the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish his thousand-year reign on earth (Revelation 19:11–16).
      Comparing the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
      In the study of Eschatology, these two events are often confused because they are similar. Both happen during end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are important differences to discern. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key distinctions noted in Scripture.

      1) Meeting in the Air – Versus – Returning with Him
      In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air:

      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:16– 17 (NIV)
      In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord:
      The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:14 (NIV)
      2) Before Tribulation – Versus – After Tribulation
      The Tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will complete his discipline of Israel and final judgment upon the unbelieving citizens of the world. The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation:

      For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. ​1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
      Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
      While the Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation:
      And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” Revelation 17-18 (NIV)
      3) Deliverance – Versus – Judgment
      In the Rapture believers are taken from the earth by God as an act of deliverance:

      After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:13– 17
      For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
      In the Second Coming unbelievers are removed from the earth by God as an act of judgment:

      Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
      But the beast was captured and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs, he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21 )NIV)
      4) Hidden – Versus – Seen by All
      The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event:

      Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
      The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone:

      “Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:7
      5) At Any Moment – Versus – Only After Certain Events
      The Rapture could happen at any moment:

      …While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 (NIV)
      For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (NIV)
      The Second Coming won’t happen until certain events take place:

      He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called Godor is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV)​
      Immediately after the distress of those days, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.​ Matthew 24:15-30 (NIV)
      Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?”​ Revelation 6-18 (NIV)

    • Kevin Gull says:

      Troy Day well laid out

    • Terry Wiles says:

      Troy Day “…to the church to defeat the antichrist… “ (or) “with” the church to defeat the church to defeat the antichrist…? i.e. true church raptured and returns with Christ after marriage supper in heaven…

    • Troy Day says:

      Terry Wiles Whatever toots your horn these days my dear brother I was simply apologizing for not being able to respond during church while I am preaching as you somehow do from your magical preaching ipad 🙂

    • Terry Wiles says:

      Troy Day Lol quarantined. Joined the online. Post your sermon link.

    • Tom George says:

      Jessé Beaupré how would you argue there’s no indication in the Bible of the Rapture 7 years before the Second Coming?

    • Tom George It seem according to Rev 13 that the anti-christ is given authority for 3,5 years, the 7 years is only from Daniel 9 and it’s not 100% clear that it is about the anti-christ.
      I think all the signs all point to a rapture on the 7th trumpet. Sun and moon darkened (4th trumpet) loud voice of an archangel (Revelation 10) then on the “last” and 7th trumpet the “mystery” is completed, just before the 7th trumpet the two witnesses are brought back to life, etc.

  3. Craig O'Dell says:

    Saints could be referring to Holy Ones as it is translated and utilized in the OT. No one wants to maintain uniformity of understanding from the OT to the NT. In NT theology we want to define the saints as human believers that were resurrected or raptured. Yet, in OT they are described as divine beings. Your view is really about who you define the “saints” to be and how to use the definition and when to apply that definition. And, everyone argues over the proper application, thus coming up with various interpretations.

    • Troy Day says:

      no – not really Again PLS see my exegetical example that answers your concerns on this one https://www.facebook.com/groups/eschatology.end.times/permalink/1694498500727574/

    • Craig O'Dell says:

      Troy Day No thank you. You have yet to offer something new to the discussion. It is time to stop promoting your material and engage in discussion if you want to be heard.

    • Troy Day says:

      Craig O’Dell the OP is the discussion here Stay with it instead of going OFF topic Apart from some confusion you got with the OT and the NT I dont see you presented any arguments Saints could not refer to OT only Obviously OT saints will be raised in the rapture too Then the whole church returns with Christ after the Tribulation What is so hard not to understand? Just look in the Greek how clear the wording is in both cases that matches this explanation except of looking for holy ones where they are not even mentioned Stay on topic pls

  4. And in response here we have the truth:

    https://youtu.be/xwXoMNpOhos

  5. Zachary Uram says:

    Glory to God! Wonderful post brother Our Cog!

    • Troy Day says:

      and THANK GOD for it indeed

    • Rob Burr says:

      Now that the backslapping is over, let’s have the hard truth.
      The tribulation of Israel is over, they live in a post tribulation world.
      The tribulation began when the first beast kingdom of Daniel lay seige to Jerusalem.
      How can anyone be so far behind in understanding prophetic history? Why do people follow church haters like John Nelson Darby?
      Why follow egotists like Hal Lindsey and Co trying to make a name for themselves?
      Nebuchadnezzar is the name, kicking off the seven times of trial his game.
      Follow the Bible and the prophets of Judah first and foremost. Forget about the wreck of false or contradictory exegesis since then.
      It is not about you, Troy Day and Zachary Uram but Israel, their prophetic timeline and their Messiah.

    • Troy Day says:

      Rob Burr all claims NOT backed by the BIBLE Such extreme preterism openly denies the Bible prophecies and leaves the church with NO hope for eternity

    • Rob Burr says:

      Troy Day preterism?
      You have to be kidding.
      What I can say; is if your pre tribulation rapture view is correct, then you and I have missed it by:
      589 + 2020 = 2,609 years.
      Needless to say I refute such craziness entirely.

    • Troy Day says:

      Rob Burr preterism is pretty much nuts IMO

    • Rob Burr says:

      Troy Day even worse than any brand of futurism.
      I’m still getting over the fact though, that any sort of future 7 year tribulation is even taught in Pentecostal colleges, given its anti-church roots.

    • Troy Day says:

      Rob Burr As it was by all orthodox church fathers proving its early church theological origin https://ourcog.org/church-fathers-on-the-rapture/

  6. Jerry Gabo says:

    Yes there’s a difference!

  7. The pre-tribs are so confused they publish their argument daily, because they are so unsure of themselves, this is exactly how Satan wanted them to be.

  8. Steve Wilson says:

    Its it bad that I laughed at this and didn’t bother to read or watch it….or whatever it is; because I was once a hard-core pipe hitting pretrib dispensationalist, and not only know the arguments, but once spouted them off like a fool?

    • Steve Wilson yes. Because even the Pharisees laughed at Jesus they thought they knew the truth they have been studying. But were sorely wrong. Be a Berean, not a Pharisee.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Wilson and now you are left behind?

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian

      Pretrib rapture is not biblical.

      I’ll ask you what I ask so many…

      Give me one verse, just one, that tells me the catching up is 7 years before Christ’s return.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian

      I am not laughing at Jesus.

      Thats an odd conclusion on your part.

    • Steve Wilson no one said you laughed at Jesus. It’s called a comparison sir.

    • Steve Wilson your request is kind of funny. It’s similar to people asking “give me one verse that says “God is and always has been a trinity”

      You won’t find that verse. Does that mean it’s untrue?

    • Troy Day says:

      I am sorry my dear brother, but I am not of the habit of posting on social media while in church. Especially when I am preaching in the pulpit and ministering in the altar. I will be happy to address your concern if it is theologically presented on another day when we are not ALL in church as well as we should be. At the same time, you’d understand the general skepticism of discussing theology with people who are not ministers and have not proper received theological training. Like my mechanic tells me when I do my best to work on my new truck, let the professionals handle it before you break something important.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian

      Give me as many verses as it takes.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Troy Day

      1. I never asked you to reply today.

      2. I replied at 5am or 6am… i wasn’t at church at 5am or 6am.

      3. Church lasts about 2 hours or so, which means you COULD reply today, but not during church.

      4. We all live in different time zones, potentially, so we are not necessarily at church at the same times.

      5. Just as a non-mechanic can fix a car as well as a mechanic but choose a different profession; so are there Christians not in the ministry who know as much as a person in the ministry… sometimes more.

      6. Did you join this discussion group thinking everyone was in an official ministry? Do you not discuss with people here till you look at their FB page and see they are officially in the ministry?
      Your comment seemed very illogical and self-rightous.

    • Steve Wilson you don’t seem to get it. You have set the standard by which the verse(s) have to say, but that standard doesn’t hold up for the trinity, for example.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian

      Were not talking about the trinity.

      I can show you the trinity in 3 verses.

      How many do you need to show me a pretrib rapture.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Wilson my comment was responding to directly to the previous gentleman who posted during church not to your 5AM comment! One reason I prefer NOT to do tree-like comments under the threads as ppl get confused easily

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Troy Day

      I have to ask… how do you know he was in church?

    • Steve Wilson Are you saying that the teachings is wrong

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Ifeoma Esther Sam

      I am saying the pretrib rapture teaching, that I once was a believer in and taught some ppl…is not biblical.

    • Steve Wilson

      //Eric Bakarian

      Were not talking about the trinity.

      I can show you the trinity in 3 verses.

      How many do you need to show me a pretrib rapture.//

      That’s not how you set up the question. You asked for a specifically staged phrase to be found in a verse.

    • Troy Day

      //Steve Wilson my comment was responding to directly to the previous gentleman who posted during church not to your 5AM comment! One reason I prefer NOT to do tree-like comments under the threads as ppl get confused easily //

      That’s why you put quotations on who you are responding to. Removes confusion.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian As you should be able to see, I changed the question to make it easier for you.

    • William Edde says:

      Troy Day excuse me while I lose my lunch

    • Troy Day says:

      Eric Bakarian you mean tagging. It did not let me do it that time perhaps because you are mainly OFF topic here. One more reason I do not like to use tree threads

    • Troy Day how am I off topic? Explain

    • Steve Wilson you didn’t change anything.

    • Troy Day says:

      Eric Bakarian oh WOW posting during church and @ 3am That’s some unhealthy fixation OFF topic

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Eric Bakarian

      Do you believe in the pretrib rapture because you see it in scripture or not?

      If because you believe it is in scripture, then show me.

      If you can’t… you have no business telling others the pretrib rapture is true.

      Period.

    • Troy Day

      //oh WOW posting during church and @ 3am That’s some unhealthy fixation OFF topic//

      You are in a different timezone than I am, also I was sick yesterday and couldn’t go to church. I wasn’t aware the WHOLE internet must be silent while you attend church.

      3am posting? Again, you are in a different time zone than I am, also I work until 1 AM Mountain time, during which, there’s not much work to do and so I get on facebook.

      Anything else that needs explaining to you? Would you also like to know my blood type?

  9. Allan Cowie says:

    To be honest I find it hard to believe folks still give any credence at all to this view. This recent movie makes it as clear as any I’ve come across in the last 15 years just how incredibly ropey this view is. Pre-wrath has issues of its own in my opinion though but far, far less than Pre-trib.
    https:/z/youtu.be/xwXoMNpOhos

    • Troy Day says:

      A strong objection to the 3/4 Trib Rapture view is its mistaken concept of the sovereignty of God. The view attempts to distinguish the wrath of Man and Satan from the wrath of God. Both Man and Satan operate under the sovereignty of God. That’s why Psalm 2 pictures God sitting in Heaven laughing at the evil plots of the world’s political leaders. His laughing is not motivated by a lack of concern. He laughs because He has the wisdom and power to orchestrate all the evil of Man and Satan to the triumph of His Son.

    • Allan Cowie movie is not & cannot be the word of God

    • Allan Cowie says:

      Ifeoma Esther Sam If you simply read the Bible for yourself you’d never come up with pre-trib. Its got to be seeded by man as an idea, not too unlike the enemy seeded tares in the wheat concept Jesus taught of.
      Bibles with mans commentary added have a lot to answer for, in particular scofields.
      After going cover to cover through the Bible (without mans polluting commentary) several times over a number of years I had to conclude pre-trib is just not there, at best it has to be very ropely inferred and you’ve Olympic level scriptural gymnastics to apply and no small dose of plain logic butchery needed to get there.
      This view does have a very significant appeal to suffering averse human nature though, i think that factor plays a real part in all this. I call it the “immature Peter factor” (see Mathew 16:22-23). Jesus straightened him out in the end but it took a pretty heavy duty public rebuke to put a dent in his deeply entrenched suffering averse mindset.
      The recent movie ‘7 pretrib problems’ exposes it for what it really is in my opinion, its just untenable, although pre-wrath view itself raises some questions but nothing remotely on the scale of pre-trib.

    • Allan Cowie Is rapture before tribulation

    • Allan Cowie says:

      Ifeoma Esther Sam end

  10. Troy Day says:

    We need not be ignorant concerning this subject because it is fully and clearly revealed in many passages of the New Testament. The fact and manner of the rapture are clearly revealed in the following Scriptures: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36), “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3), “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, . . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58),, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27), “For our conversation is in heaven- from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21), “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:13-17), “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him…. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:1, 7, 8). See the other passages on the rapture (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 3:11; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 5:9, 23; Col. 3:4; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4). Not one of the above passages refers to the second advent.

  11. Thanks for the teachings,he who has ear let him hear

  12. Steve Conley says:

    There is Only One Future Coming of Christ

    When considering Christ’s Parousia (His coming) it is important to realize that those who fail to recognize the difference between that period of unprecedented persecution of the elect and ethnic Israel that Jesus called great tribulation and the period of the eschatological wrath of God in the day of the Lord, are forced into dividing Christ’s singular future Parousia, His second, into two future comings. It is true that we will not experience God’s eschatological wrath, but the church will most certainly go through the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation which precedes the day of the Lord. The Scriptures testify of that which the churches have taught throughout the last 2000 years, the singular future parousia of Christ, His second.

    Believers have always recognized that Jesus would remain with the Father in Heaven until He is sent by Him at the times of the restitution of all things. That is what Peter said.

    Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
    Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
    Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    Paul said that His coming would be His second, at which time He will bring salvation.

    Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation.

    There is no mention of a third or fourth parousia in the Scriptures. We are raptured at His second parousia. His first parousia took place ~ 2000 years ago at Christ’s first advent. The Greek word parousia means arrival and continuing presence. It is found 24 times in the NT. It is translated “coming” or “presence”. In 17 of the 24 appearances in the NT it refers to Christ’s arrival and continuing presence. It cannot be overemphasized, that it refers to more than His initial arrival. It involves the whole of Christ’s activity after He is sent by the Father (Gal 4:4; Acts 3:19-21). His first coming was more than His conception. It involved His life, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection. So also, shall His second coming (parousia) involve much more than His initial appearing. It will include all His eschatological activity through the millennium at the least.

    The classic rapture passage is a description of our gathering unto Christ at this parousia, Christ’s second.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Our gathering unto Christ at the rapture is associated with the Parousia, His second coming.

    2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,

    It is at this coming [parousia] that we are rescued, before the wrath falls, like Noah and Lot were rescued first.

    Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the COMING [parousia] of the Son of man be.
    Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    Mat 24:39 AND KNEW NOT until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the COMING [parousia] of the Son of man be.

    It is at this coming that Christ will REVEAL Himself in glory with the mighty angels. Notice that His Revelation takes place at His Parousia.

    Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
    Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
    Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
    Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
    Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED [apokalupsis].

    Jesus taught that the wrath that He brings at His coming and revelation is unexpected by the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. He also taught that the righteous (those justified in Him) would be taken to safety before His wrath falls. There is one more important truth that He emphasizes in the Luke 17:26-30 passage. It is the same day connection between our rescue and His wrath falling upon our persecutors.

    It is at this COMING and REVELATION that the persecuted church will rest from persecution and Christ will, in RECOMPENSE, begin to tribulate those who persecuted us.

    2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to RECOMPENCE tribulation to them that trouble you;
    2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED [apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels,
    2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

    It is this coming that initiates the day of the Lord, the period of God’s eschatological wrath. It is a RECOMPENCE of VENGEANCE upon those who persecuted us who are His elect.

    Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S VENGEANCE, and the year of RECOMPENCES for the controversy of Zion.

    Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with VENGEANCE, even God with a RECOMPENCE; he will come and save you.

    It is a response to the cries of the saints that their blood be avenged upon the Beast worshiping, earth-dwellers who persecuted them.

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
    Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and AVENGE our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
    Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    When the final number of those to die as martyrs in the great tribulation is fulfilled, Christ will come speedily and avenge them. But between the many who fall away and those slain as martyrs shall there be Faith on the earth?

    Luk 18:7 And shall not God AVENGE his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
    Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will AVENGE them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

    Continued below

    • Steve Conley says:

      Continued from above

      Jesus said that the violent persecution of the great tribulation will cause “many to be offended” and the false prophets of that day, who use lying signs and wonders, “shall deceive many.” Will any believers remain?

      Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
      Mat 24:10 And THEN SHALL MANY BE OFFENDED, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
      Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and SHALL DECEIVE MANY.

      Paul referred to this falling away, saying that it must come before Christ’s Parousia, before His day.

      2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

      Jesus says that the days of that unprecedented persecution and supernatural deception must be shortened (cut short) to save some of the elect alive upon the earth.

      Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
      Mat 24:22 And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

      It is these who make it through the great tribulation persecution of the elect, that are “ALIVE AND REMAIN” when Christ comes.

      1Th 4:17 Then we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

      It is they of whom Christ said:

      Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED.

      The salvation in context is the physical deliverance that shall come at Christ’s appearing and revelation. It is that salvation that we are appointed unto in 1Thes 5:9.

      1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
      1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

      The wrath, that we are not appointed unto, is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord. We see this from the context of 1Thes 5:9 as seen in verses 2 and 3. Notice that the sudden (unexpected) destruction comes upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.

      1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
      1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
      1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

      Notice that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. But we are told that we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Christ’s arrival will not be unexpected for us because Christ has given us many signs which will precede His coming.

      The sign that immediately precedes Christ’s arrival in the clouds with the mighty angels is that cosmic sign that was said to come before the day of the Lord. It is the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars that is often spoken of in association with the day of His fierce wrath.

      Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

      John sees this very sign when the sixth seal is opened. It follows a great earthquake that moves mountains and islands out of their places.

      Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
      Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
      Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

      These are the very events that Jesus says, when we see them, to be encouraged (“lift up your heads”) and look to the sky (“look up”) for our redemption is nigh. He communicated that when these things happen, He will arrive to gather us unto himself at any moment. Notice how Jesus describes the effects of the great earthquake, “the sea and the waves roaring”. Even the fear, perplexity, and distress match John’s description in Rev 6:15-17 and Isaiah’s in Isa 2:19.

      Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
      Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
      Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
      Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

      After the cosmic sign Jesus will be revealed coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Every eye will see Him with the mighty angels.

      Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

      Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
      Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
      Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

      It is following His revelation that Christ raises the dead (1Cor 15:23), changes the survivors of the great tribulation (1Cor 15:51-52), and gathers us to Himself via the angels (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31). Notice that the cosmic sign comes after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation referred to by that name in verses 21-22.

      May our gracious Lord open your eyes to these truths.

  13. Steve Wilson

    //Do you believe in the pretrib rapture because you see it in scripture or not?//

    Of course I do! 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17, parallel passage John 14:1-3

    2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the “Bema Judgment” from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth.

    Since Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as “fine linen,” which represents “the righteous acts of the saints”) to her groom (Christ); and the bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming accompanying Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18), it follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes.

    //If because you believe it is in scripture, then show me.//

    Excellent. I have shown you there in 1 Thess 4:16-17

    //If you can’t… you have no business telling others the pretrib rapture is true.//

    Agree with you there.

  14. Troy Day says:

    Tribulation =
    G3986 – peirasmos πειρασμός
    1) an experiment, attempt, trial, proving
    a) trial, proving: the trial made of you by my bodily condition, since condition served as to test the love of the Galatians toward Paul (Gal. 4:14)
    b) the trial of man’s fidelity, integrity, virtue, constancy

    1) an enticement to sin, temptation, whether arising from the desires or from the outward circumstances
    2) an internal temptation to sin
    a) of the temptation by which the devil sought to divert Jesus the Messiah from his divine errand
    3) of the condition of things, or a mental state, by which we are enticed to sin, or to a lapse from the faith and holiness
    4) adversity, affliction, trouble: sent by God and serving to test or prove one’s character, faith, holiness
    c) temptation (i.e. trial) of God by men

    1) rebellion against God, by which his power and justice are, as it were, put to the proof and challenged to show themselves.
    – peirazō πειράζω
    1) to try whether a thing can be done
    a) to attempt, endeavour

    2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself
    a) in a good sense
    b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments
    c) to try or test one’s faith, virtue, character, by enticement to sin
    1) to solicit to sin, to tempt
    a) of the temptations of the devil
    d) after the OT usage

    1) of God: to inflict evils upon one in order to prove his character and the steadfastness of his faith
    2) men are said to tempt God by exhibitions of distrust, as though they wished to try whether he is not justly distrusted
    3) by impious or wicked conduct to test God’s justice and patience, and to challenge him, as it were to give proof of his perfections.

    1) a trial, experience, attempt
    2) to attempt a thing, to make trial of a thing or of a person
    3) to have a trial of a thing
    4) to experience, learn to know by experience.

    – hypomonē
    1) steadfastness, constancy, endurance
    a) in the NT the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings
    b) patiently, and steadfastly
    2) a patient, steadfast waiting for
    3) a patient enduring, sustaining, perseverance

    from:
    G5278 – hypomenō
    1) to remain
    a) to tarry behind
    2) to remain i.e. abide, not recede or flee
    a) to preserve: under misfortunes and trials to hold fast to one’s faith in Christ
    b) to endure, bear bravely and calmly: ill treatments.

    Tribulation=
    G2347 – thlipsis θλῖψις
    Transliteration
    thlipsis
    Pronunciation
    thlē’-psēs (Key)
    Part of Speech
    feminine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From θλίβω (G2346)
    Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
    2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits

    G2346 – thlibō θλίβω
    Transliteration
    thlibō
    Pronunciation
    thlē’-bō (Key)
    Part of Speech
    verb
    Root Word (Etymology)
    Akin to the base of τρίβος (G5147)
    Outline of Biblical Usage 1) to press (as grapes), press hard upon
    2) a compressed way
    a) narrow straitened, contracted
    3) metaph. to trouble, afflict, distress

    G5147 – tribos τρίβος
    Transliteration
    tribos
    Pronunciation
    trē’-bos (Key)
    Part of Speech
    feminine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From tribo (to “rub”, akin to teiro, truo, and the base of τράγος (G5131), τραῦμα (G5134))
    Outline of Biblical Usage 1) a worn way, a path

    WRATH=
    G3709 – orgē ὀργή
    Transliteration
    orgē
    Pronunciation
    or-gā’ (Key)
    Part of Speech
    feminine noun
    Root Word (Etymology)
    From ὀρέγω (G3713)
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) anger, the natural disposition, temper, character
    2) movement or agitation of the soul, impulse, desire, any violent emotion, but esp. anger
    3) anger, wrath, indignation
    4) anger exhibited in punishment, hence used for punishment itself
    a) of punishments inflicted by magistrates

    G3713 – oregō ὀρέγω
    oregō
    Pronunciation
    o-re’-gō (Key)
    Part of Speech
    verb
    Root Word (Etymology)
    Middle voice of apparently a prolonged form of an obsolete primary [cf ὄρος (G3735)]
    Outline of Biblical Usage
    1) to stretch one’s self out in order to touch or to grasp something, to reach after or desire something
    2) to give one’s self up to the love of money

    The Bride will not go through the Great Tribulation! Revelation 3:10. But those that are spiritually asleep drunken in the night with the world, will go through the first 3.5 of it, then they are caught up in the 7th chapter of revelation. They had robes, they were robed in the righteousness of Christ, but they allowed themselves to have been tarnished with the cares of this world and the flesh. After they see the Bide has been taken out and they left behind, they repent washing those robes back in the blood. They have palms in their hands, they have to be fed, where they never learned to feed themselves the Word of God. Those in the 4th chapter 4 and 20 eldersers the 4 living ones are the Bride of Christ. They are symbolic beings, but they make up the bridal company. 4 and 20 number 24 is the Lords Govermental number doubled, because His Bride reigns with Him, that is the Brides Priestly side. The four faced Beast are their characteristics of their kingly side as they yielded to the Lord while on the earth. They take on Christs character. Matthew portrays Christ as King, the cherubic figure is the lion, Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Mark portrays Christ as servant, the offering portrayed is the sin offering. The greatest of the sin offering was an ox therefore, we see the side of Christ as the calf. Luke portrays Christ as man, Christ was a peace offering as man. Therefore, we see the face of man in the 4 faced beast. John portrays Christ as is Heavenly heavenly nature and we see the side of the Eagal, and the Bride reflects all these Caharsistics of Christ. These ones have crowns and they may them at Jesus feet. And they cry out that He Jesus has made them kings and priests unto our God. The ones in Chapter 7 are not declared as so. And keep in mind that the book of Revelation is a vision, and anything can happen in a vision.

  15. David King says:

    The Post-Tribulation Rapture Point of View

    Point ONE—The SIX similarities of I Thess. 4:16-17 and Matthew 24:30-31

    The classic Pre-Tribulation Rapture verse is the following:.

    “For the Lord himself will come down from HEAVEN, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the TRUMPET call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be CAUGHT UP TOGETHER with them in the CLOUDS to meet the Lord IN THE AIR.” (I Thessalonians 4:16-17 NIV)

    Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture mistakenly believe that the rapture recorded in the verse above will take place at least seven years before the “Great and Glorious Second Coming Of Christ”, which is recorded in Matthew 24 as follows:

    “At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the CLOUDS OF THE SKY, with power and great glory. And he will SEND his angels with a loud TRUMPET call, and they will GATHER HIS ELECT from the FOUR WINDS, from one end of the HEAVENS to the other.” (Matthew 24:30-31 NIV)

    It should be an embarrassment to those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture to discover that these two different passages have six items in common and that they are all in the same chronological order as well.

    Common Themes I Thess. 4:16-17 Matthew 24:30-31
    1. same starting location heaven—————————-clouds of the sky
    2. same divine signal loud command——————“send”
    3. same trumpet TRUMPET———————–TRUMPET
    4. same “Rapture” caught up together————-gather his elect
    5. same final destination clouds——————————air
    6. same destination four winds————————-heavens
    (Timing according to (At least 7 years
    Pre-Tribulation Ideas) before “Doomsday”) (“Doomsday”)

    Those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture believe that the 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 prophecy will occur at least 7 years before the Matthew 24:30-31 prophecy is fulfilled.

    Now the way we tell if two different passages of Scripture are speaking about the same theme is by the number of items in common with both passages. Often we can find one, two or at the most three things in common between two passages of Scripture to confirm that two different passages of Scripture are talking about the same issue. But probably no two passages in the entire Bible have as many things in common (SIX) as these two passages, so they absolutely must be talking about the same event. Further, these six things are all in the same chronological order, again confirming that these two passages must be referring to the same event. Therefore, probably no two passages of Scripture have as great of weighty testimony of evidence that they are speaking about the same event as these two passages of Scripture. So if these two passages of scripture are not speaking about the same event (as the “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” claim), then it becomes impossible for “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” to prove that ANY other two passages in scripture are speaking about the same issue or event without requiring that all comparisons between two passages must have at least seven things in common and also be in the same chronological order. Why? Because obviously having only six things in common and in the same chronological order is not good enough proof for them any more.

    Despite this logic, Christians who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture still mistakenly claim that these two passages are speaking of two different future Biblical events that will happen at least seven years apart.

    Point TWO—The LAST TRUMPET

    The chart below is the same as the chart above except for two changes. First, I have added the “dead in Christ rise” portion from the 1 Thess 4 prophecy. Second, since the “Pre-Trib Rapture folks” believe that the Matthew prophecy occurs LAST then the trumpet in the Matthew prophecy must also be the LAST trumpet. By default therefore, the trumpet in the 1 Thess prophecy must be the “NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET” and I have indicated this in the chart below.

    COMMON THEMES I THESS. 4:16-17 MATTHEW 24:30-31
    1. same starting location heaven———————————clouds of the sky
    2. same divine signal loud command———————–“send”
    3. different trumpet NEXT To The Last TRUMPET—LAST TRUMPET
    4. First Resurrection “dead in Christ rise”—————–not mentioned
    5. same “Rapture” caught up together——————gather his elect
    5. same final destination clouds———————————-air
    6. same destination four winds—————————–heavens
    Timing according to At least 7 years
    Pre-Tribulation Ideas before doomsday “Doomsday”

    So according to the “Pre-Trib Rapture Folks” the “dead in Christ rise” at the NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET. However, the Bible tells that that all Christians who have died up to that time will be raised from the dead at the sound of the LAST TRUMPET, not the NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET. For it is written:

    “Listen, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the TRUMPET will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and we will be changed.” (1 Corinthians 15:51-52 NIV)

    The “Pre-Trib. Rapture” teaching mandates that the “dead in Christ” must be raised at the “NEXT TO THE LAST TRUMPET” and not at the “LAST TRUMPET” and so according to 1 Corinthians 15:51-52, the Pre-Trib. Rapture position is false. The Post-Trib. Rapture position is that both trumpets represent the same, identical trumpet because both prophecies are about the same, identical event. This means that the First Resurrection and the Rapture cannot occur until after the after the “abomination of desolation” and after “the sun is darkened and the moon does not give its light and the stars fall from the sky” exactly as Jesus said in Matthew 24:29.

    Now there are some who would say that the expression “LAST TRUMPET” is just as vague as the expression “LAST DAYS” and so cannot be interpreted as a definite single, final and last trumpet beyond which there are no other trumpets. However, the word “DAYS” in the expression “LAST DAYS” is plural and not singular (as in “LAST DAY”), and every time the word LAST is followed by a singular noun it is ALWAYS to be interpreted as single, final, terminal object or event. In fact, there are three examples of this idea in this same chapter of 1 Corinthians 15 (NIV): “LAST ENEMY”, “LAST ADAM” and “LAST TRUMPET”—“The LAST ENEMY to be destroyed is death” (verse 26), “the LAST ADAM, a life-giving spirit” (verse 45), and the LAST TRUMPET” (verse 52). Of course, since there are no enemies after the LAST ENEMY (death), and no ADAMs after the LAST ADAM (Christ), then you can be certain that there will be no other heavenly trumpets blown after the LAST TRUMPET is blown at the first resurrection. So again, since there can be no heavenly trumpet blown after the LAST TRUMPET, then the first resurrection that takes place at the LAST TRUMPET must also be the same trumpet that is blown in Matthew 24, an event that takes place AFTER the abomination of desolation and AFTER the sun is darkened, etc.!

    These two points taken together totally destroy the Pre-Tribulation Rapture theory because point two can neither be refuted nor re-interpreted.

    To be continued in the following post…

  16. David King says:

    POST-TRIB #2

    Continuing on…

    Point THREE—The LAST DAY

    Jesus taught his followers that the dead would be raised at the LAST DAY (doomsday—the day Christ destroys the wicked), not seven years BEORE the LAST DAY. Martha mentions this teaching of Christ in the following passage:

    Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
    Martha answered, “I know he will rise again at the resurrection at the LAST DAY.” (John 11:23-24 NIV)

    Where did Martha get the idea that the dead rise at the LAST DAY (not seven years BEFORE the LAST DAY)? She got this idea from Jesus himself, as recorded in John 6, just five chapters earlier. For it is written:

    “And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but RAISE them up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:39 NIV)

    “For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:40 NIV)

    “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:44 NIV)

    “Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life and I will RAISE him up at the LAST DAY.” (John 6:54 NIV)

    Notice that Jesus tells his followers FOUR TIMES in John 6 that he will raise them up at the LAST DAY—not seven years BEFORE the LAST DAY—and Martha declares that same thing in John 11!

    So it is easy for believers in a Post-Trib. Rapture to conclude that the First Resurrection will take place on the LAST DAY—not seven years before the last day—and that the LAST DAY will be a day when the unrighteous will be destroyed, exactly as it says below in POINTS 4,5,6, & 7. But those who believe in a Pre-Trib. Rapture folks must now re-interpret the LAST DAY as the day the church is raptured. The problem with their interpretation is that after the Rapture, life on earth goes on for a short while pretty much the same as before. So it is difficult to conclude that the Rapture takes place on the LAST DAY when the day after the Rapture is essentially identical as the day before the Rapture, except for the confusion and the grief over what happened.

    Point FOUR—Those who are LEFT BEHIND are DEAD!

    Of course, if the Post-Trib. Rapture viewpoint is correct and if the resurrection takes place on the LAST DAY (DOOMSDAY: the day of Christ’s return and wrath upon the wicked), then most everyone left behind is DEAD! And Christ tells the disciples that the wicked that are left behind are indeed DEAD—and that the birds are eating their carcasses! For it is written:

    “I tell you, on THAT NIGHT two people will be in one bed; one will be taken and the other LEFT. Two women will be grinding grain together; one will be taken and the other LEFT. Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other LEFT.”

    “Where, Lord?” they asked. [“Where will they be left?”]

    He replied, “Where there is a DEAD BODY, there the vultures will gather.” (Luke 17:34-37 NIV) [Brackets added for clarity.]

    Here Jesus tells us that the wicked that are LEFT BEHIND are not going about their usual routines after the rapture, but that instead the wicked are DEAD, and birds are eating their bodies, exactly as it says in Revelation and Ezekiel. For it is written:

    And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, ”Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great …The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the BIRDS GORGED THEMSELVES ON THEIR FLESH.” Revelation 19:17-18, 21 NIV) (See also Ezekiel 39:4, 17-20)

    Of course, if the rapture takes place BEFORE the tribulation and those left behind are all dead, then there hardly anyone alive left behind for the Anti-Christ to rule over, which is one more reason why the “pre-tribulation rapture” idea is incorrect, because Christ destroys the wicked AFTER the seven year tribulation and not BEFORE!

    Point FIVE—The Day that God separates the SAVED from the DAMNED is the very same day that the DAMNED DIE!

    Jesus tells us that the very day God separated the righteous (Noah and his family) from the unrighteous (those to die in Noah’s Flood) was the very day God began to destroy the unrighteous—not seven years later! For it is written:

    “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the days of the Son of Man. People were eating; drinking, marrying and being given in marriage up THE DAY Noah entered the ark. Then the flood came and destroyed them all.” (Luke 17:26-27 NIV)

    So Jesus says that on the very day that God SEPARATED the SAVED from the DAMNED, that he destroyed the DAMNED—not seven years later, as some mistakenly teach as a “Pre-tribulation rapture”. It is also written:

    “It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and bulking. But THE DAY Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. (Luke 17:28-29 NIV)

    Notice again that on the VERY DAY God SEPARATED the SAVED (Lot and his daughters) from the DAMNED (those left in Sodom), God destroyed the DAMNED—not seven years later, as those who mistakenly believe in a “Pre-Tribulation rapture would have us believe.

    Point SIX—The SURFACE of the Earth BURNS up during the RAPTURE

    The Christians who believe in a “Pre-Tribulation Rapture” teach that when Christ returns as a “thief in the night” that for those left behind life goes along just fine. But the Bible teaches that when Christ returns as a thief in the night that THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY (exactly as it says in Matthew 24, which occurs AFTER the seven year tribulation) and that the surface of the earth is “BURNED UP”! For it is written:

    “But the Day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which THE HEAVENS SHALL PASS AWAY WITH A GREAT NOISE, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, THE EARTH also and the works that are therein shall be BURNED UP.” 2 Peter 3:10 KJV)

    The rapture cannot possibly go unnoticed when Christ comes as a thief in the night if the surface of the earth is burned up. Therefore, the rapture cannot possibly take place BEFORE the seven-year tribulation. But this verse fits perfectly with the idea that the rapture takes place AFTER the seven year tribulation when Christ comes back to destroy the wicked with the “brightness of his coming”. (2 Thessalonians 2:8 KJV)

    To be continued in the following post…

  17. David King says:

    POST-TRIB #3

    Continuing on…

    Point SEVEN—Christ comes LIKE a THIEF during the Battle of Armageddon

    Christ claims he is going to “come back like a thief” right in the middle of the Battle of Armageddon, which is AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE. For it is written:

    “They are spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the BATTLE ON THE GREAT DAY OF GOD ALMIGHTY.”
    “BEHOLD COME LIKE A THIEF! …” [said Jesus]
    Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called ARMAGEDDON.” (Revelation 16:14-16 NIV) [brackets added for clarity]

    Since Christ comes back like a thief during the battle of Armageddon (which is AFTER the seven-year tribulation) then the rapture (which occurs when Christ comes back like a thief) cannot possibly occur BEFORE the seven-year tribulation, as some Christians would have us believe.

    Point EIGHT—Many who RISE at the First Resurrection faced the BEAST

    If the rapture (and therefore the first resurrection) both occur BEFORE the seven-year tribulation, then no one risen from the dead in the first resurrection would ever have faced the beast or the false prophet to refuse to take the mark of the beast on his forehead or right hand. But Revelation 20 reveals that there ARE Christians who rose from the dead in the First Resurrection who did indeed face the beast and refused to worship him or take his mark on their foreheads or their hands. For it is written:

    “They had NOT worshipped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. … This is the FIRST RESURRECTION.” (Revelation 20:4b NIV)

    The only way that many of those risen from the dead could have faced the beast, seen his image, and refused to take the mark of the beast, would be if they rose from the dead AFTER the seven-year tribulation—not BEFORE! And this means that the rapture likewise must take place AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE.

    In addition, the verse says that the MILLENNIAL REIGN OF CHRIST starts IMMEDIATELY after the FIRST RESURRECTION. This also means that the First Resurrection and the Rapture cannot possibly happen 7 years BEFORE the Second Coming.

    Point NINE—The Church is GATHERED to Christ AFTER the Abomination of Desolation.

    Paul himself says that the rapture will not take place until the Anti-Christ sits in the temple of God and claims to be God. This abominable act is part of the “abomination of desolation” which Jesus says must take place PRIOR his return (Matthew 24:15 NIV), yet this “abomination of desolation” happens at the END of the seven-year tribulation period, and not BEFORE! (Daniel 12::9-27; 12:11) For it is written:

    “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him … don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will NOT come until … the man of lawlessness is revealed …so that he sets himself up in God’s temple proclaiming himself to be God.” (2 Thessalonians 2:1,3-4 NIV)

    So the rapture absolutely has to take place AFTER the tribulation because this “abomination of desolation” does not take place until the END of the seven-year treaty.

    In summary, there are NINE good reasons why the rapture must take place AFTER the seven-year tribulation and not BEFORE. Notice that each of the reasons directly addresses the issue of whether the rapture takes place BEFORE or AFTER the tribulation.

    Neither Peter, Paul or Christ make a distinction between the rapture and the secnd coming. None of them ever say, “please note that I am now referring only to the rapture and not the second coming” or vice versa.

    Points TEN—At the END of their ministry, BOTH Peter and Paul taught a POST-TRIB rapture.

    At the end of their lives, both Peter and Paul wrote letters that included explanations concerning the apparent delay in Christ’s return to earth. Paul’s explanation is in 2 Thessalonians 2 and Peter’s explanation is in 2 Peter 3. Both explanations align perfectly with a Post-Tribulation point of view and are directly opposed to a Pre-Tribulation point of view.

    Paul’s explanation addresses mistaken concerns in the Church that someone had supposedly forged a letter in Paul’s name declaring that the Rapture had already taken place. So Paul writes in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 states the Rapture will not occur until after the antichrist sits in the new temple and proclaims himself to be God. This is part of the abomination of desolation spoken of by Christ and is clearly at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.

    Peter’s explanation concerning the delay in Christ’s return says that “God is not slow as some count slowness”, “a day with the Lord is like a thousand years and a thousand years is like a day”, “the day of Christ’s return will come like a thief in the night in which the heavens disappear and the earth is burned up”…clearly presenting a Post- Tribulation Point of view as an explanation for the delay in Chris’s return.

    POINT ELEVEN—Christ comes as a THIEF and destroys the wick at the same time.

    Paul tells us that on the very day that the Lord comes like a thief as a night that those who are left behind will be destroyed sudden destruction will come upon those who are left behind from the Rapture. For it is written:

    “…the DAY OF THE LORD will come like A THIEF IN THE NIGHT. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” DESTRUCTION WILL COME ON THEM SUDDENLY, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will NOT ESCAPE.” (I Thessalonians 5:1-2)

    Notice how ALL ELEVEN of these evidences PRECISELY identify the rapture as happening AFTER the Anti-Christ’s 7-year treaty with the enemies of Israel (spoken of in Daniel 9), whereas (as you will see below) NONE of the ELEVEN “evidences” of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture have ANYTHING to do with whether the rapture will happen BEFORE or AFTER the Anti-Christ’s 7-year treaty with the enemies of Israel.

    POINT TWELVE—The ELECT are STILL PRESENT during the GREAT TRIBULATION.

    There are THREE references in Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:22,24,31) that teach the Church (the ELECT) will still be on earth during the Great Tribulation. For it is written:

    “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the ELECT those days will be shortened… For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the ELECT…And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his ELECT from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.” (Matthew 24:22,24,31)

    So it should be clear that the CHURCH (the ELECT) will still be on earth during the GREAT TRIBULATION and that the ELECT will be GATHERED up into the sky during Christ’s second coming.

    To be continued in the following post…

  18. David King says:

    POST-TRIB #4

    Continuing on…

    POINT THIRTEEN

    Revelation 18:4 says,

    “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: “ ‘COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE,’
    so that you will not share in her sins, so that you will not receive any of her plagues.”

    Why would a voice from heaven say to the TRIBULATION SAINTS “COME OUT OF HER, MY PEOPLE”, if “MY PEOPLE” (i.e. the CHURCH) had already been raptured BEFORE the TRIBULATION?

    Revelation 18:4 teaches that the CHURCH is still present on earth during the BEAST’S 3 ½ year rule over the world during the second-half of the BEAST’S 7-year military Treaty with the enemies of Israel.

    POINT FOURTEEN

    Jesus Christ cannot possibly come AT ANY MOMENT at the “LAST TRUMP” (in I Corinthians 15:52) when the FIRST TRUMP (of the REVELATION TRUMPET JUDGMENTS—Revelation 8 & 9) hasn’t happened yet?

    ???????????????

    In addition, the actual QUALITY of the PRE-TRIB arguments are poor, in that, on the whole, the PRE-TRIB arguments are more vague, more imprecise, and more indirect than the POST-TRIB arguments.

    Here are the themes of the classic PRE-TRIB arguments. Notice their VAGUENESS, their IMPRECISION, and their INDIRECTNESS, when compared to the above POST-TRIB arguments.

    1. The Rapture will happen IMMINENTLY.
    2. The Rapture will happen UNEXPECTEDLY.
    3. Christ will COME LIKE A THIEF.
    4. The Church is NOT DESTINED FOR WRATH.
    5. God’s purpose for the Church is DIFFERENT that His purpose for Israel.
    6. I will keep from the hour of temptation which is to come upon the whole earth.
    7. “COME UP HERE”.
    8. “AS IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOAH…”
    9. The Church is NOT MENTIONED after Revelation chapter three.
    10. The Churches in Revelation are churches throughout history.
    11. TWO MEN IN A BED
    12. He who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
    13. Our blessed hope.

    Notice how ALL these arguments are vague, imprecise and only indirectly related to the timing of the rapture, rather than directly.

    My point is that the actual QUALITY of the PRE-TRIB arguments are poor, because they are more vague, more imprecise and more indirect.

  19. Steve Wilson Waiting on a rebuttal

  20. Steve Wilson says:

    Eric Bakarian its coming

  21. Steve Wilson says:

    Let’s start with:

    1 Thess 4:16-17

    1 Thessalonians 4:16–17: 16 “For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord”

    This verse proofs a catching up; a rapture, if you will, but says nothing of pretrib timing.
    In fact, Jesus said he would raise those the father draws to Him ON THE LAST DAY. So, in conjunction with that verse, this happens on the last day, not 7 years before the last day.

    Next verse you gave me:

    John 14:1–3: 14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.”

    Yes, we will spend eternity with Christ…this is what he is preparing… where in ghis verse tells you the catching up is 7 years before the end, a pretrib timing??

    Next verse:
    2 Corinthians 5:10: 10 “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil. ”
    This is the judgment after the day of the Lord, there is nothing in this verse thst implies or states the catching up is 7 years before the end. The lord returns with a shout, tge dead raised, we meet him in the air, get our new bodies, return with him in New bodies like a procession, and the wheat znd tares are separated and judged.

    Revelation 19:7–9 (ESV): Let us rejoice and exult
    and give him the glory,
    for the marriage of the Lamb has come,
    and his Bride has made herself ready;
    8 it was granted her to clothe herself
    with fine linen, bright and pure”—
    for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints.
    9 And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”

    You’ll notice, John doesn’t say “I saw a multitude, it just says the saints were clothed in linen, etc… you realize right now in God’s eyes we are wearing our righteousness in God’s eyes, meaning, the righteousness of Christ… its why we can approach him and call him Father… also… you have forgotten all the dead Christians from the last 2000 years… why only put saints in the class of those alive 7 years before the end… this verse just means those in Christ are ready for the marriage supper WHEN the wedding comes… we are ready when it comes… this verse never said it was wedding time or supper time, just speaks of dead Christians in heaven made ready by Christ when the wedding comes…never says John is watching the wedding supper taking place.

    Remember, right now when we pray to the Father, we do so wesring the perfect robe of white of Christs righteousness, because we are already justified…that Rev passage is not describing the wedding feast, but describing what Christ did to make us welcome to it… read it again very carefully.

  22. Troy Day says:

    Steve Wilson I appreciate your response so I am addressing it above in detail in order not to interfere in your theological tension here which is characteristic for most post-trib post-mil sunday school forums

  23. Troy Day says:

    Steve Wilson I appreciate your response so I am addressing it in detail I would address only your comment on 1 Thes and the timing of the pre-trib rapture as the rest of your observations are basically based on your wrongful claim that it does NOT state pre-trib – in fact it does in several ways IN some pasts comments I have explained the Greek behind it being quite clear but as it seems it is still difficult for some to grasp it I will add some context etc to the exegesis this time

    PURPOSE It is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which encourages living Christians that, at the Rapture, they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them. There is NO encouragement in telling the church it will go through the Tribulation. Paul negates such claim with the emphatic imperative he uses in the passage. This is proven by the context of Paul’s “SOON URGENCY”
    CONTEXT in relation to Christian experience, the return of Christ is the ultimate victory that creates patience (3:13). The conviction that we will experience ultimate victory at the Rapture produces patience in the believer (cf. 5:14b).
    The Amplified BIBLE relates it in more detail: Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], – this is important for understanding what Paul is saying
    Although then denotes “succession in enumeration,’ it does not necessarily indicate any long interval and in fact 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 makes clear that no appreciable interval between the raising of the dead in Christ and the transformation of the living saints is implied.
    The fact that Paul uses the first person plural (we) (see discussion of use of “we” in v15) strongly suggests that he fully expected to meet the Lord in the air.
    shall simultaneously – the Greek is empathic here It all happens AT THE SAME TIME as NO other resurrection in human history. BTW the SHALL is not only a promise, it is phrased as a result of covenant living
    be caught up – the Greek, the Latin are all clear what this word means and why it cannot be arrival, landing etc (harpazo from haireô = take, in NT only in middle voice = haireomai = to take for oneself, to choose; akin to airo = to raise up) means to snatch up or way, to seize or seize upon, to steal (see comparison to klepto below), to catch away or up, to pluck, to pull.Jesus touching earth physically Does Paul really describe a “rapture”? That seems to be the question of many skeptics and scoffers. They argue that the word “rapture” is no where to be found in Scripture. In addressing their argument, it behooves us to keep in mind that the Latin Vulgate was the primary Bible translation utilized for one thousand years preceding the Reformation. In short, the Latin Vulgate “reigned” as the primary Bible translation longer than any other translation. In the Latin Vulgate the Greek word harpazo was translated “rapiemur” which is clearly related to our English terms “Rapture” or “raptured”. So those detractors who argue that the term Rapture does not appear in the Bible are only expressing their ignorance and are obviously unaware of the prominence of the Latin Vulgate translation in church history.
    Pls NOTE here the word Meet (apantesis from apantáo from apó = from + antáo = to come opposite to, to meet especially to meet face to face) describes a meeting especially a meeting of two who are coming from different directions. In all ORIENT cultures it is used for wedding or otherwise celebration. No such celebration is described in Revelation or anywhere else with the timing of mid or post rapture. The meaning of apantesis writing that “In Hellenistic Greek the expression had become a kind of technical term denoting “a ceremonial meeting with a person of position. In papyrus usage it was used of an official delegation going forth to meet a newly appointed magistrate, or other dignitary, upon his arrival in their district.” We see many Church fathers use it when writing about pre-trib rapture
    along with [the resurrected dead] – this is a major key in Paul’s exposition as noted before
    in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; – the double repetition clouds/air is worth looking into. Paul does not need to specify LOCATION If he meant the 2nd coming he could have just said it This is NOT how he explains it though – indicate the Church going up in the heavens which many today deny as they did in the times of Paul and the Thess
    Now to your point of the timing – it is clear from the text this is not Christ’s final and physical return on Earth WITH his Saints to establish HIS Kingdom. Paul is pretty clear this is a different cloud/in the air event

  24. Troy Day says:

    Steve Wilson FINALLY following seven evidences point to a pretribulational rapture. They create a far more compelling case than the reasoning given for any other time of the rapture.

    1. The Church Is Not Mentioned in Revelation 6–18 as Being on Earth
    The common NT term for “church” (ekklesia) is used 19 times in Revelation 1–3, a section that deals with the historical church of the first century toward the end of the apostle John’s life (ca. AD 95). However, “church” is then used only once more in the twenty-two chapter book, and that use is at the very end (22:16) when John returns to addressing the first-century church. Most interesting is the fact that nowhere during the period of Daniel’s seventieth week is the term for “church” used for believers on earth (cf. Rev. 4–19).
    It is unexpected that John would shift from detailed instructions for the church to complete silence about the church in the subsequent 13 chapters if, in fact, the church did continue into the tribulation. If the church will experience the tribulation of Daniel’s seventieth week, then surely the most detailed study of tribulation events would include an account of the church’s role—but it does not. The only timing of the rapture that would account for this frequent mention of “church” in Revelation 1–3 and the total absence of the “church” on earth until Revelation 22:16 is a pretribulational rapture which will relocate the church from earth to heaven prior to Daniel’s seventieth week.
    Looking at this observation from another perspective, it is also true that nowhere in Scripture is it taught that the church and Israel would coexist as the centers for God’s redemptive message and yet remain mutually exclusive.
    Today, the church universal is God’s human channel of redemptive truth. Revelation gives indications that the Jewish remnant will be God’s human instrument during Daniel’s seventieth week. The narrative abruptly shifts from the “church” in Revelation 2–3 to the 144,000 Jews from the twelve tribes in Revelation 7 and 14. Readers must ask, “Why?”
    Further, because Revelation 12 is a mini-synopsis of the entire tribulation period and because the woman who gave birth to the male child (Rev. 12:1–13) is Israel, then the Tribulation period focuses on the nation of Israel, not the church. How could this be? Because a pretribulational rapture has removed the “church” from the earth prior to Daniel’s seventieth week.

    2. The Rapture Is Rendered Inconsequential if it is Posttribulational
    First, if God miraculously preserves the church through the tribulation, why have a rapture? If it is to avoid the wrath of God at Armageddon, then why would God not continue to protect the saints on earth (as is postulated by posttribulationism) just as He protected Israel (see Exod. 8:22; 9:4, 26; 10:23; 11:7) from the wrath He poured out on Pharaoh and Egypt. Further, if the purpose of the rapture is for living saints to avoid Armageddon, why also resurrect the saints who are already immune at the same time?
    Second, if the rapture will take place in connection with the Lord’s posttribulational coming, the subsequent separation of the sheep from the goats (see Matt. 25:31 ff.) will be redundant. Separation will have taken place in the very act of translation.
    Third, if all tribulation believers are raptured and glorified just prior to the inauguration of the millennial Kingdom, who then will populate and propagate the Kingdom? The Scriptures indicate that the living unbelievers will be judged at the end of the tribulation and removed from the earth (see Matt. 13:41–42; 25:41). Yet, they also teach that children will be born to believers during the millennium and that these children will be capable of sin (see Isa. 65:20; Rev 20:7–10). This will not be possible if all believers on earth have been glorified through a posttribulational rapture.
    Fourth, the posttribulational paradigm of the church being raptured and then immediately brought back to earth leaves no time for the Bema, i.e., the Judgment Seat of Christ to occur (1 Cor. 3:10–15; 2 Cor. 5:10), nor for the Marriage Supper (Rev. 19:6–10). Thus, it can be concluded that a posttribulational time of the rapture is incongruous with the sheep-goat nation judgment, and, in fact, eliminates two critical end-time events. A pretribulational rapture avoids all of these difficulties.

    3. The Epistles Contain No Preparatory Warnings of an Impending Tribulation for Church-Age Believers
    God’s instructions to the church through the epistles contain a variety of warnings, but never do they warn believers to prepare for entering and enduring the tribulation of Daniel’s seventieth week.
    They warn vigorously about coming error and false prophets (see Acts 20:29–30; 2 Pet. 2:1; 1 John 4:1–3; Jude 4). They warn against ungodly living (see Eph. 4:25–5:7; 1 Thess. 4:3-8; Heb. 12:1). They even admonish believers to endure in the midst of present tribulation (see 1 Thess. 2:13–14; 2 Thess. 1:4; 1 Peter). However, there is absolute silence on preparing the church for any kind of tribulation like that found in Revelation 6–18.
    It is incongruous, then, that the Scriptures would be silent about such a traumatic change for the church. If any time of the rapture other than pretribulational were true, one would expect the epistles to teach the reality of the church in the tribulation, the purpose of the church in the tribulation, and the conduct of the church in the tribulation. However, there is no teaching whatsoever. Only a pretribulational rapture satisfactorily explains this silence.

    4. First Thessalonians 4:13–18 Demands a Pretribulational Rapture
    Suppose, hypothetically, that some other rapture timing besides pretribulational is true. What would one expect to find in 1 Thessalonians 4? How does this compare with what is actually observed?
    First, one would expect the Thessalonians to be joyous over the fact that loved ones are home with the Lord and will not have to endure the horrors of the tribulation. But the Thessalonians are actually grieving because they fear their loved ones have missed the rapture. Only a pretribulational rapture accounts for this grief.
    Second, one would expect the Thessalonians to be grieving over their own impending trial rather than grieving over loved ones. Furthermore, they would be inquisitive about their own future doom. But the Thessalonians have no fears or questions about the coming tribulation.
    Third, one would expect Paul, even in the absence of interest or questions by the Thessalonians, to have provided instructions and exhortation for such a supreme test, which would make their present tribulation seem microscopic in comparison. But not one indication of any impending tribulation of this sort appears in the text.
    First Thessalonians 4 fits only the model of a pretribulational rapture. It is incompatible with any other time for the rapture.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Troy Day

      The church is made up of saints… the saints are mentioned… there is the mention of the church… just because the word “church” isn’t used is very normal, he used saints…and of course the word is used prior to chapter 4, chapters 2 & 3 are letters to the churches.

      2. So the saints can return visibly with Christ on their new bodies and return to Jerusalem with Him. How else get everyone alive on earth to Jerusalem at the same time in their new bodies visible to everyone while parcipating in the returning of the King ?

      3. There are warnings… but not of a 7 yr tribulation…the 1st century church was in ttibulation, and have been… nowhere in scripture does it say there is z division between week 69 and 70… only in premill books, not the bible.

      4. Christians in the 1st century were being horrifically murdered snd tortured… why would they worry about trubulation…yhey were on tribulation … John at the start of Revelation tells us we are in tribulation already:

      Revelation 1:9 (ESV): 9 I, John, your brother and partner in the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Troy Ladd

      You start off with pretrib glasses, and then can only see scripture via pretrib, reading many things that are not there. Its like a domino effect of wrong understanding… nowhere in the bible are you told pretrib timing… ever… so you price verses together and say..”Why would they say that if pretrib”…

      Ok…2 Thess 2… why would Paul tell them they’ll see the anti-Christ, if they’ll be raptured prior to him being revealed? Why didn’t Paul mention the rapture? Why didn’t Paul just say “Why are you worried, the rapture didn’t come yet”

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Wilson just because the word “church” isn’t used is very normal – NO not really since the church is mentioned over 20 times in ch. 1, 2 and 3 and then ALL of a sudden NO mention through the whole tribulation The Saints you mention refer to ISRAEL – the elect ones Nowhere in the bible are you told pretrib timing is not exactly correct because in fact NO where in the BIBLE you are not told ANY time of the return of the Christ – that is what the BIBLE does NOT tell us on purpose which Jesus explained in detail

      Pls also note that as to the church not mentioned you deny the argument from silence, but in the very next sentence you use argument from silence to defend your theory 🙂 How come it works for you but not for anyone else ? BTW see ,my 3 posts already on 1 Thes 4 where I explain from the Greek which words and phrases show the timing being pre-Trib Also we have a running topic on 2 thes 2 to inform your other concern Hope all this helps some

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Because he specifically said they know Jesus hasny returned because they’ve not seen the anti-christ… meaning, Christians will see the anti-Christ…. this is a problem for you…pretrib theory is clear that the rapture happens prior to the revealing of the anti-Christ… 2 Thess 2…clearly Paul didn’t see it that way

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Wilson they’ve not seen the anti-christ is correct meaning, the church is raptured Before he ever appears The Church shall NOT see the anti-christ until we return with Jesus to conquer earth in Rev 19

      The church will not see the a-christ because the church is the restrainer in 2 thes 2/2 the church needs be taken away snatched raptured and only then the a-christ shall appear We already discussed this in detail here https://ourcog.org/the-restrainer-in-2-thes-22-is-not-michael/

    • Steve Wilson says:

      Troy Day

      And there is the problem with 2 Thess 2.

      They were worried That Christ had already returned…. Call reassures them that he has not come and then tells them why do you think He has come you haven’t even seen the Anti-Christ yet nor the falling away… Problem is Paul’s expecting them to see the enterprise before Christ returns and you say they want even see him the rapture comes before his revealed you the are right or Paul is right

  25. thankx for the truth, God bless you, i ve always tried to explain the difference between the rapture and second coming but many dont seem to undeerstand, this one is better!