Are we predestined ? if yes, then how do we have free will?
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Foreknowledge of everything you will do is not predestination ?♂️
The same way we are able to thwart almighty God’s plans with our sovereignty (sarcasm)
People often misunderstand the concept of free will. There are a lot of things we can choose. I can choose to answer this post, or I could choose to use the same phone to do something depraved. What I can’t choose is whether or not you post it. This comment was predestined, not because I couldn’t choose it, but because various factors beyond my control enabled me to reply.
Unlike you and me, God is absolutely sovereign. In both knowledge and power, God is infinite. What that means is that free will is absolutely not a hindrance to Him. He knows how He can bring about His will using your free will. He knows “right, if I give this parent this child at this time, this series of events will occur that will lead to him freely accepting my Gospel”. There’s no conflict. God’s just smarter and more powerful than our species can even comprehend.
The Sovereignty of God
Right here we confront a vital distinction. It is one thing for God, in His sovereignty and without diminishing that sovereignty, to give man the power to rebel against Him. This would open the door for sin as solely man’s responsibility by a free choice. It is something entirely different for God to control everything to such an extent that He must effectively cause man to sin. It is a fallacy to imagine that for God to be in control of His universe He must therefore foreordain and initiate everything. Thus He causes sin, then punishes the sinner. To justify this view, it is argued that “God is under no obligation to extend His grace to those whom He predestines to eternal judgment.” In fact, however, obligation has no relationship to grace. It actually diminishes God’s sovereignty to suggest that He cannot use to His own purposes what He doesn’t foreordain and originate. There is neither logical nor biblical reason why a sovereign God by His own sovereign design could not allow creatures made in His image the freedom of genuine moral choice. And there are compelling reasons why He would do so. Because of His absolute holiness, it is impossible for God to do evil, to cause others to do evil or even to entice anyone into evil: “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted, neither tempteth he any man…” (James:1:13-14
). But what about the many places in Scripture where it says God tempted someone or was tempted? For example, “God did tempt Abraham” (Gen:22:1
). The Hebrew word there and throughout the Old Testament is nacah, which means to test or prove, as in assaying the purity of a metal. It has nothing to do with tempting to sin. God was testing Abraham’s faith and obedience.
There would be no need for the Cross or Christ’s crucifixion if Gods complete Sovereignty as Calvinism declare it now would there be. Because He has already purposed everything.
https://youtu.be/WRS_ULKek0U
There are some definitions of free will that are unbiblical but if you define free will as just having the capability to choose to do otherwise or refrain to do something, without any other baggages, here’s my take:
God being omniscient not only means that He knows what can and will happen, He also knows what would happen at any given circumstances (see 1 Samuel 23:9-13). So with God having this kind of knowledge and us having “free will”, God can still predestine or predetermine how the world history would unfold without having to causally determine our actions (though He has the freedom to do that anytime as He see fits). So in short, He can predestine everything by just utilizing His foreknowledge (or middle knowledge) of our free actions
And also, just because He has foreknowledge of our future actions doesn’t mean that we are “fated” to do those actions, we still could have done otherwise but in doing so, His foreknowledge would have been different (NOT “changed”)
Did Judas had any freewill when he betrayed Jesus ? Or was he part of the scrypt ?
Predistination is a strong biblical doctine…free will is absurd in the scriptures.
Predestined to what? Where did you get that word and what is the context? Define free will and then we can discuss. Throwing around terms and phrases without looking at the context is not helpful.
You do have a choice, God just happens to know what you will choose. God is outside of time so he lives in all time. Past, present, and future.
God predestined the elect to salvation. We know this from the scriptures.
There is a certain sense that free will exists. Our will is bound to our nature. Meaning that if we are a slave to the sin nature, we will make choices that are in opposition to faith. And that person cannot of their own put faith in Christ, or choose to have faith. They do not have the capability or capacity for that. And so they are not totally free to do that because of their inability.
When God removes the heart of Stone and gives me in the heart of flesh to regenerate that man, he changes their nature. The new regenerated nature makes choices freely of their own volition to put faith in Christ, and seek to follow him all their life. They will also make choices that are in accord with their new nature. This is because their new nature is not compatible with their old lifestyle. That does not mean that they will not send any more ever. It just means that they won’t be a slave to sin any longer.
Who said mankind had any free will?
Free will is a lie and deception.
It is God who has the will and purpose, mankind get to choose to submit to that will and purpose or not.
If mankind wants to claim a will and purpose, then they want to be the adversary to God, darkness lawlessness and chaos.
https://youtu.be/iokVMSaLhvU
I think it’s like you told your wife to cook meat and went to work, and she can get any meat, chicken or beeg or pork or mutton and fried it or boiled it or grilled or roasted, it’s her wish, you just need the result meat. I think that’s how it works, God needs the result you can do your way, if she asked specifically what meat and how to cook, you would tell and that’s what we do in prayer, Kord, why, how, when etc. The more we ask in detail the more He’d tell I believe.
You are NOT predestined to be elect or to be damned. If that were so, there would be no need for the “foolishness of preaching” since your election would be entirely up to God, right?
1Corinthians 1: 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
So, salvation comes to a BELIEVER, not to some preordained to be elect while others predestined for hell.
Here you go: God predestined calls and plans…NOT PEOPLE. Choose Him today.
I can give you an example. Say you are a parent and you give your child two options for breakfast.. 1. Garlic 2. Candy
You as a parent know that your child will pick candy over garlic. You know. But at the end its your choice. Thats what he says he is omniscient God but the choices are ours. Thats why he put humans above everything.
Lots of subjective comments on this post. One wonders if you could ever know the truth! I suppose one has the freedom to believe any one of these perspectives, and yet they could all be wrong, but not all be true. God, however, does know the truth.
Hey wait!…Could it be that we can have free will, while God knows our choices without being responsible for them?
People who ask these kind of question sir do nothing but reveal there lack of any kind of stusy of the bible
How they work together is not fathomable to the human mind, but they do work together and God is sovereign.
If you do evil its “Free will” if you do good its “Gods will”. Simple
What if we don’t have free will ? Maybe a faculty of human choice but not free will to choose God. If man does have free will , then we will choose wrong every time.
Here’s a picture of of predestination and free wll working together say you couldnt watch your favorite team on television so you prerecorded it although the game ended you still don’t know how it ends until you watch it later did that change the outcome of the game?
Proverbs 16.9…the heart of man plans his way but the Lord directs His steps. Awe-filled amazing!
We are have freewill 100%
The Bible teaches – Whoever puts their faith in Christ – is predestined for glory/heaven.
It’s not about predestined for salvation but instead for glorification. Big difference.
Read the context and you’ll see nobody is predestined for salvation, the context is always addressing people who are already saved.
Otherwise you’re right, we wouldn’t have free will.
But we do ??
Predestination by foreknowledge
Yes. God looked ahead and saw all that would choose him and chose them. God desires all to be saved.
1Ti 2:3-4 KJ2000 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Predestination is the clear and universal teaching of the Church.
Predestination is based on the fact that with God there is no time, no change, and He knows everything, including what we will choose before we were ever created. This is a great mystery, but, nevertheless, His predestination includes our human freedom or free will.
The important thing to remember is that our final destination – for eternity – is entirely our decision, which God, in His infinite Love for each of us, fully allows us to make.
Questions like this always make me think of the apostle Paul. When he met the lord on the road to Demascus He ultimately was converted and it was not his will when he started on the journey. His will was to persecute people of The Way. But Gods had chosen Paul and there wasn’t really anything Paul could have done about it. It was Gods will that Saul had that experience on the road. God didn’t leave it to Sauls free will to be found by him. I’m not a bible scholar but a former atheist who became a believer through a supernatural encounter. I can say that it was NOT my will or desire to find God. I wasn’t searching. But when God revealed himself and I “saw” God for the first time in my life then I chose him. I’m still finding my feet with it all, but I will also add that I do not believe that God predestines people to hell either. So this is an interesting thread…
The plan of God is predestined, not who will be in the plan.
My Observation, Perfect will -VS- Passive will,& free moral agency
the difference between the perfect will of God and the permissive will of God. Let’s take A look at Cain and Abel
both boys were on free moral agency As we are, they could choose according to their understanding the dictates of their heart and most importantly revelation.
They both got it in their heart to have an audience with God so they both set out to build an altar one offered a lamb by faith
Heb 11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Faith is a revelation of God’s will. It is only by revelation that you would have the faith to offer up what is acceptable unto God.
Abel was a sheepherder and we know Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the Lord.
Gen 4:3
So each of them offered up what they believe that God would receive to have an audience with God. no doubt their parents had told them about the presence of the Lord, when they walked in the cool of the garden and God met with them.
We see that Cain’s Sacrifice was rejected by God and also that Abels sacrificed was accepted by God this made Cain very mad, Mad enough to kill his brother in the course of time, which would be his own personal choice, The Bible said; the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen
Scriptural support:
Gen 4:4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the Lord had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
Genesis 4:5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
Gen 4:6 And the Lord said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
So Cain in the encounter with the Lord was offered grace by the works that he could do,
So now the choice he has to make Do I go over to my brother and ask for a lamb and come back and offer it to God on the alter so that I can be accepted by God.
Now he has to make a choice! will he humble his heart and ask his younger brother for a lamb? No!
Cain At this time was offered life and acceptance with God but through his free moral agency, he chose to murder his brother, if you’ll notice God actually offered Cain life according to his works which would have been get the lamp off for it and he would be accepted by God.
So we are all given the choice to choose when given the information About any circumstance.
We see the nature of Cain when he met his brother in the field, talk things over probably about the birth of Cain And what took place in the fall and this made him wroth so mad he chose to kill his brother.
Then when God come and asked about his brother because remember it was the voice of his blood that cried out, and this is the first place you see in the scriptures where somebody blatantly lied to God to his face And it was the first murder, see John 8:44
we know that God is willing that none should perish that is why Cain was offered the way to approach God by a lamb Sacrifice on the altar which would have left Cain in the same perfect will of God not the permissive will of God.
There is a mystery in what took place at the garden with Adam And Eve At the fall.
So the choice we have to make by free moral agency is the permissive or the perfect will of God, remember both of these boys we’re religious and believe they had the right approach to Gods presence
We see clearly in the genealogy of Adam only the Abel was his son, in the two genealogies found in the Bible in Genesis and in Luke 3, Cain was never mentioned so we can conclude that able had the nature of his father Adam.
And that Cain also had the nature of his father
1 John 3:12
Those that are considered chosen, elect, through four knowledge, (we all know Jesus said that he has chosen us) and John says he has predestinated us,
between the two
So, I believe the difference between the two factions Armenian ISM in Calvinism is the ones that God has chosen an elected will make the correct choice based upon the revelation that they see. Which has manifestation and vindication.
wine means Stimulation of revelation
and rock means rock of revelation,
Peter was given the revelation of who Jesus is in Matthew 16:13-19
and Jesus told him he would build his church (cold out ones) upon this rock,- rock of revelation spiritually revealed truth of the revelation of who Jesus Christ is in real time as she manifests himself in human flesh.
We see here that Paul and Peter had a firm understanding that everything they were to receive from God was by faith (revelation) and so is it today the mystical body of Jesus Christ (the bride) is Built upon the spiritually revealed and vindicated truth of God’s word for the day an hour you live in.
REVELATION
Paul- Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the REVELATION of Jesus Christ.
Peter-1 Peter 1:13 Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the REVELATION of Jesus Christ;
Paul- Romans 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and REVELATION of the righteous judgment of God;
Paul- Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the REVELATION of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
Paul- 1 Corinthians 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by REVELATION, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
the elact even though they chose the permissive will, will in the end of circumstance will end up in the perfect will, by God’s choice, the choice of others have the same choice Cain did, respectfully
If you choose with your freewill to accept Jesus then you become a part of the “predestined” group(collective), which God through his omniscience has known about before the foundation of the world!
God won’t force you to be with him. He wants those who want and obey him and not the world
R.C. Sproul said that we have volition or will, but it is in bondage to sin. In other words, we can choose to do the right thing, and we can choose to come to God at any time, but we purposefully don’t unless God intervenes and regenerates our dead souls thereby enabling us to come to God. Jonathan Edwards explained it this way: If your nature determines what you want, and what you want determines what you do, then God transforms your nature at the point of regeneration, so that you can will or want to do the right things and thereby come to God. He wrote about this in his book, “Freedom of the Will.”
Who so ever will. We are all the chosen
It’s not possible for our finite minds to grasp the infinite. We are all obviously given free will, however…our Creator also created time, and is therefore outside of time, and knows the end from the beginning. Logical conclusion is YES & YES
The plan of salvation was predestined, good pious deeds and a purpose for our lived was predestined, Jesus defeating satan and providing atonement for our sin to save us was predestined. We are free to accept that salvation or reject it.
Read s book called Choosen by God by RC Sproul. Buy the book from his Ministry m Ligionier Ministry
Predistined to be with God but its our choice. God designs patterns for us to walk but we can decide if we want to walk through that or not.
Salvation is a work of God Not man. We cant save our selves. We make decisions everyday that is intact to our sin. Anyone who say “i used to be a christian” Never was in the first place. Once you belong to God u are his forever. GOD saves men for HIS Glory NOT ours. So if its gor his Glory he will see to it that you will be sanctified. Those he called, he justified, those he justified he glorified.
He who began a good work in you will continue to work in you. Once you repent and trust in the gospel you are SEALED with the Holy Spirit which is the Earnest of your inheritance of the Kingdom.
To be honest I’m at the point where I know both sides of the argument. One for predestination and the other for free will and I honestly don’t know what I believe. I’ve come to the conclusion where I’m just gonna preach the gospel and preach people to repent of their sins and turn to the God that loves them. It’s up to God how he wants to save people. If he’s given people free will to choose him or he makes it so that they are able to repent and be saved then so be it. He’s God he can choose how he wants to save people and who he wants to save. It doesn’t matter to me. I trust he knows what’s best.
Is your God too small to account for predestination and free will? The God of the Bible accounts for both.
Predestined where we come from as existing? Or where we’re going?
Predestination is collective and in Christ. Like a ship/Christ going to a certain destination, those who come on board become part of the ELECT and therefore are predestined. We are chosen in Christ. We fell in Adam, we rise in Christ.
The free will part is up to us but those who chose christ and become PART of him are predestined because choosing christ meant your journey in him is set.
Predestination is according to God’s foreknowledge Romans 8:28-30
Because the two concepts are not mutually exclusive.
FREE WILL DOSE NOT MAKE U GOD ..CAUSE UR WILL IS IN TIME AND ANYTHING IN TIME IS TIME BOUND ..
Our will is free in the sense we don’t act on instinct like animals
Then how can we analyse John Calvinism theory on salvation which also talked about predestination.
We are predestined to salvation through the means of Jesus Christ crucified. The sinner, by revelation of the truth, will either repent and believe the gospel or reject the gospel. This they will do according to their will.
Predestination is based on God’s foreknowledge.. Romans 8:29
Yes..to both.
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