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I know a lot of good meaning and saved Christians here believe in God ordained evolution and that Genesis 1 is allegorical. My question for the group is whither those people also see the Noah account as allegory as well?
Discussion
50 comments
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I have a similar question for them? Where do allegory and hyperbole end?
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Genesis chapter 1 through 11 are vital, and a literal narrative. Adam was created as an adult, he didn’t evolve from primordial soup.
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Theistic evolution seems to be nothing more than “Christians” trying to fit God into the evolutionary theories, and that God didn’t have the ability to create everything how he created it. Plus there is countless evidence for a literal historical view of the biblical flood and the aftershocks from it to cause the “ice age” genesis is historical truth!
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I think I just need to leave this group. These questions are insufferable.
Is this a group that is making a case for Christ using the vast amount of evidence? Based on my experience, no.
This is a group of people testing who is orthodox enough.
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Justin Werth, I tend to think Genesis is at least not 6 24-hour days. And I believe the story of Noah is an actual historical event.
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The one tragic thing I see in this thread is that people are using an admittedly controversial account to decide whether someone is saved or not. I presume when Tony writes “Christians” in reference to those who are not YECs, he is implying he doesn’t believe they’re saved.
So suddenly it’s not just grace through faith that saves us. It’s whether we get Genesis 1-11 right as well?
The entire idea is absurd.
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Evolution is nothing but a lie.
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I think not. I think evolution is mans narrow minded way of understanding something that is far out of their understanding.
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No, it’s not allegory. It’s very specific with its numbers and data. All of the evidence available points to the flood, and the lineage as described in Genesis. The only places where the evidence and the biblical narrative appear to differ is when interpretations/assumptions get folded into the equation. Bottom line, there has been never been anything dug up, or found, or seen through a microscope or telescope that conflicts with what the Bible says about our origins.
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When you consider that Methuselah and Adam and his son Seth were contemporaries for more than 200 years, and that Methuselah was Noah’s grandfather, I think we can rest assured that the history of our world was accurately relayed.
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I have recently been studying this topic (the flood). I love discussing it. I was always a die-hard literalist on these early Genesis passages.
We tend to read everything with our own cultural expectations. We need to rethink that. I believe the events described are real, but I don’t think an overly literalist interpretation is appropriate.
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Neither the flood (Noah) nor Adam are allegorical. The Bible speaks of them as real people. I’m not sure what regarding Gen 1:1 as allegorical means. It just says the God created everything .
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According to the fossil record about 99 percent of all species that ever lived are now extinct. There are millions of species living today accounting for the 1 percent still living. This alone completely blows the flood story out of the water! The story becomes utterly impossible. Now the core truth to the story is that it was a localized flood in which a family and their animals saved themselves on a small boat.
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Yes. There was no global flood.
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To deny the literal interpretation of the Genesis and believe in theistic evolution or Darwinian evolution, relevant to both the Creation narrative and The Flood, is to call the Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ a liar.
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The flood of Noah was a literal, world-wide flood. Jesus, Himself, believed and taught a literal 6 day creation and a worldwide flood as judgment for man’s disobedience (ie sin). I have studied it in depth for years; because I once believed Genesis was allegorical rather than literal. I have written a multi-page account of the evidence, both biblical and scientific, which I will be happy to post if anyone is interested; and I invite critique if anyone would like to do so. I do not wish to be burdensome, however, or cause someone to believe I have some special insight not available to anyone who is willing to study the issue. I don’t even claim that you have an open mind, just that you be scholastically honest.
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Genesis is written as historical narrative, not as allegory or poetry. Real people are mentioned and focused upon and Luke’s genealogy of Jesus’s lineage stretches all the way back to Adam. There is of course no suggestion that any of them were mythical. I therefore have no problem in believing that there was a literal Noah and a literal worldwide Flood.
Interestingly, God’s instructions to Noah for building the ark are so specific that a group of University of Leicester Physics students built a model based on the exact dimensions recorded in the Bible and were surprised to discover that it would have been able to float with all the animals on board.
The fossil record too is consistent with a cataclysmic event such as the one described in Genesis.
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The. Global. Flood. Didn’t. Happen.
If you believe it did, please provide an academic source to your claims. (No you tube. No religious ministry websites)
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It’s a mythical tale, so yes, best to interpret it allegorically, originally told by word of mouth and appropriated from surrounding cultures.
Most of the bible is mythical, with only kernels of historical truth here and there. It’s not a bad thing, it’s just that its authors didn’t care much for objective, unbiased history.
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It wasn’t global – literally no need to flood a whole planet to kill people in a relatively small space of land. The planet doesn’t have that much water, and most species couldn’t even survive that kind of trauma to their life cycles. It was only “the whole world” as far as mankind was concerned.
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Everything in the Bible actually happened. Adam and Eve were real people, the Global Flood actually happened, David actually killed a nine foot giant named Goliath, the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed twice, the Israelites being taken into Babylon actually happened, Jesus actually existed. The twelve disciples actually existed and spread the Gospel that is now the most popular thing today. Everything in the Bible is real, you either believe it all or you don’t believe any of it. Take it or leave it
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Kevin Taylor
One thing I forgot to mention: this is part of a larger work about creation vs evolution which was written for a skeptical family member. So in places it references other parts which are not included in this part.THE GLOBAL FLOOD AND CATASTROPHIC PLATE TECTONICS
Remember the alternate explanation advanced for the geologic column and fossil record? What real evidence do we have that a global flood really happened? Even evolutionists increasingly have had to admit that catastrophism is a concept that must be recognized today. Many observations today, such as fossil graveyards mentioned previously, can obviously be explained only by this means. But evolutionists invariably point to local floods as an explanation, with the added explanation that the flood recorded in Genesis was called ‘global’ because it covered the entire part of the globe that people of Moses’ day knew about. There is much evidence that the flood of Noah was truly global, and not just a local flood. The evidence can be divided into two categories: 1) Biblical, and 2) scientific. Let’s take a look at both, starting with the Biblical evidence.
BIBLICAL EVIDENCE OF A GLOBAL FLOOD:
1.The Bible calls it a global flood, that destroyed ‘all’ the world and its inhabitants, except Noah and his family. A straightforward reading of Genesis chapters 6-9 clearly indicates a global flood, about 4,500 years ago. The frequency of the word ‘all’ indicates that God emphasized the universality of the flood (Gen 7:19-23). The double ‘all’ in verse 19 (“’all’ the high mountains under ‘all’ the heavens were covered”) is particularly important.
2.Why did Noah have to build an ark?
If the flood had been a local flood, there would have been no need for an ark. Noah had many years advance notice (approximately 120 years) of the impending flood. He surely would have had enough time to get his family to safety on the other side of the mountains in less time and effort than it took to build a giant boat.3.There would have been no need to gather animals for the Ark.
A local flood would not have made it necessary to provide a mechanism to ‘save’ a pair of each kind of land animal. There would have been plenty of other, similar kinds in areas not affected by the ‘local’ flood. The few ‘unique’ kinds that might not have been present in other parts of the world could have been taken across the mountain when Noah took his family to safety.4.Why was the ark big enough to hold all the kinds of land vertebrates?
If only Mesopotamian animals were involved, the ark (if required at all) could have been much smaller.5. Why would birds have been sent on board the ark?
If the flood had been local, birds could have escaped by flying to the other side of the mountains.6. How could water have risen 15 cubits (approximately 8 meters) above the mountains?
Water seeks its own level. It couldn’t have risen to cover local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.7. People not living in the vicinity of the local flood would have been unaffected. The flood was intended as a judgment of ‘all’ mankind. People not living in the vicinity of a local flood would have escaped God’s judgment. Jesus likened the coming final judgment of ‘all mankind’ to the judgment of ‘all’ in the days of Noah (Matthew 24:37- 39; 2 Peter 3:3-7).
8. A local flood calls into question the very character of God. God promised to never again send a flood to destroy the earth and judge mankind. If the flood had been a local flood, God would have repeatedly broken His promise, for there have been many destructive local floods.
9. Jesus (remember, He is God, and thus infallible) believed the Genesis account of both creation and the global flood (Matt 17:25; Matt 24:37-39; Mark 10:6; John 1:3,10).
The bottom line is that the Bible clearly states that the flood covered ‘all’ the earth and destroyed ‘all’ mankind and animals (except for Noah and his family). It uses special descriptive words that leave no doubt of its intended message -
SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE FOR A GLOBAL FLOOD:
If the flood of Noah truly was a global flood that covered all the mountains and destroyed all life on earth, with ‘the fountains of the great deep’ opening, there would have been volcanoes, earthquakes, and catastrophic movement of sediments all around the earth.
What would we expect to find following such an occurrence?
ANSWER: Millions of dead things, buried in rock layers deposited by water, all over the earth.And what, in fact, do we find?
ANSWER: Millions of dead things, buried in rock layers deposited by water, all over the earth.
Strange coincidence, don’t you think?!The fossil record and geologic column have been discussed previously, so I will briefly summarize here.
The rock layers (strata) all over the earth are mainly sedimentary, consistent with rapid deposition by water; and the features indicate that there was little time between depositions of the layers. As discussed previously, there is no evidence of surface erosion at the top of each succeeding layer. Also, there is no evidence of the formation of soil profiles in the layers. If the layers had laid there millions (or even thousands) of years there would have been plenty of time for each layer to form a soil profile, similar to what we find today in the top few feet of the earth’s crust as the bedrock weathers. This has always puzzled me. With my training in Soil Science, even when I basically accepted the ‘long-age’ beliefs of science, I wondered why the other strata did not form soil profile layers as we see todayThere are huge deposits of sandstone all over the earth. The Grand Canyon is a testament to the global flood. Within the canyon are deposits of Coconino sandstone averaging 315 feet thick, and covering a very large area. Scientists who have studied these deposits have discovered that the ‘angle of repose’ of sand dunes contained in the layers matches the angle of repose for sand under water, not under air. The lack of erosion channels indicates deposition not long after the previous layer, and then overlain quickly.
Many locations in the geologic column contain ‘polystrate’ fossils, which simply mean the fossils extend through multiple strata. Fossilized tree trunks and fossils of large animals, such as dinosaurs, are examples of fossils that often extend through more than one stratum, which according to evolution were laid down over millions of years. If the strata were indeed laid down gradually, over millions of years, these organisms would have decomposed, rather than fossilized, since fossilization requires rapid burial. Polystrate fossils are clear evidence of rapid deposition of multiple strata.
The strata are not always in correct ‘evolutional’ order; and not all strata are found at every location.Evolutionists have proposed various explanations for this, such as ‘over- thrusting’ (in the case of incorrect order) but have no real explanation of how this could occur in strata that were deposited slowly, over many years; or how most locations would contain only some strata. In order for over-thrusting to occur, you must open the door to catastrophic events, which goes against uniformitarian philosophy. The fact is, the most logical and credible explanation for these inconsistencies is the great turmoil created by a catastrophic global flood, and associated geological upheavals, which would result in sedimentary deposits sometimes ‘out of sequence’ with the generally expected order of burial; and with some strata missing at most (actually all) locations.
The global flood is also the only credible explanation for the Cambrian Explosion. The Cambrian layer, which is the lowest layer containing fossils, contains millions of marine fossils, fully formed, with no evolutionary ancestors – anywhere. The Cambrian Explosion is a complete mystery to evolutionists. They have no answer, because the obvious explanation is one they are unwilling to even entertain; because it would completely invalidate the theories of uniformitarianism and evolution
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POSSIBLE PHYSICAL MECHANISM OF A GLOBAL FLOOD -CATASTROPHIC PLATE TECTONICS
The concept of plate tectonics has gained much attention, and is considered by most geologists to be strongly supported by the evidence. Most geologists today believe that the earth was one large land mass that separated to form the continents we see today. This is consistent with the Bible, which states in Genesis 1:9, “Then God said. ‘Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear;’ and it was so.” There are several
observations that support the belief that originally there was one large continent:1. The fit of continents, taking into consideration the continental shelves.
2.The correlation of fossil types across ocean basins.
3.Zebra-striped patterns of magnetic reversals parallel to mid-ocean floor rifts, in volcanic rock formed along the rifts, implying seafloor spreading along the rifts.
4. Seismic observations interpreted as slabs of former ocean floor, now located inside the earth.
The earth’s surface consists of a mosaic of rigid plates, each moving relative to adjacent plates. Deformation occurs at the edge of the plates by three types of horizontal motion:
1. Extension – rifting or moving apart,
2. Transform faulting – horizontal slipping along fault lines,
3. Compression faulting – one plate plunging beneath another, or 2 plates colliding to form mountain ranges. Volcanoes often occur in regions of subduction.Uniformitarian philosophy contends that this process has been occurring gradually, over millions of years, at a relatively constant rate. But such slow, gradual movement cannot account for such things as mountain ranges that soar three to almost six miles above sea level. A better model is what is referred to as ‘catastrophic plate tectonics,’ which argues that most plate movement occurred in the past very rapidly, over a period of months, rather than slowly, over millions of years. The catastrophic model explains more geological data than conventional plate tectonics, how mountain ranges, such as the Himalayas, Andes, Alps, and Rockies could soar to such heights. It would take rapid, catastrophic movement of plates in a relatively short time to generate the forces needed to accomplish this.
It is possible, but of course not certain (and not provable, because we can not replicate it), that catastrophic plate tectonics is the ‘primary’ process God used to trigger the global flood. Genesis mentions two sources of water for the flood. Genesis 7:11-12 states that “…all the fountains of the great deep burst open and the floodgates of the sky were opened. And the rain fell on the earth for forty days and forty nights.” The atmosphere, even given the heavy canopy that probably existed before the flood, would not have held enough moisture to provide for a global flood which covered everything. Many believe the opening of ‘the fountains of the deep,’ which is mentioned first, and would have almost certainly been the greatest source of water, could very possibly be a description of the beginnings of catastrophic plate tectonics. Admittedly this is conjecture, and certainly not provable.
Many object, and point out that there could not possibly be enough water to cover the mountains we have today. However, approximately 70% of the earth’s surface is currently covered by water, and some ocean trenches exceed 5 miles in depth. Scientists tell us that if the Earth’s surface were flattened, there is enough water to cover all the land to a depth of 2 miles. If you consider the possibility that the pre-flood earth contained one large land mass, which is supported by both Biblical and scientific evidence, with mountains not nearly as high as the ‘high’ mountain ranges we find today (formed catastrophically during events of the flood), this explanation becomes quite possible, even probable. Add to this the fact that fossils are found at the tops of the highest mountains on Earth, and you have clear evidence of the possible role of catastrophic plate tectonics associated with the global flood of Noah, which would lay down millions of fossils through rapid deposition of great quantities of sediments, and then push some to the top of mountains as continental plates collided with great force.
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God said 6 days, He meant 6 days.
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If Jesus actually believed it and said it, any Christian that believes the contrary ought to examine himself
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Jesus took the creation account and the story of Noah as actual history, and so should we.
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Jesus controls the weather with His Word. What does He need The Flood to be an allegory for?
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I believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. What is says is what it means. The Genesis account of creation is literal. And the account of Noah is literal.
Some people want to put God in a box and say God is not capable of certain things. Like being able to create the entire universe and everything in it in 6 literal days. If God is unable to do that, then He is no God and we follow a myth. But the Bible says there is nothing impossible for God, so, since nothing is impossible for God, then yes, He can create everything in 6 literal days. And He can bring a global flood on the earth as in the days of Noah. It doesn’t take much faith to believe this, trusting in what God says.
I understand that there is archaeological evidence to support the 6 day creation and that of Noah’s Ark. I’m not sure of the creation evidence, but there has been sightings of something that may be the ark on Mt. Ararat in Turkey.
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Well, Jesus himself took genesis as literal. Was he stupid and fooled ???? (No just in case )
At what point do you start to believe scripture? -
People who believe in God-led evolution are trying to have their feet in two camps. They don’t know how to explain or defend creation and don’t know how to answer the evolutionists. First off, since when did we have to explain God’s creative power? He’s God! How do you “explain” any of God’s miracles? How do you explain the parting of the Red Sea, the holding the sun in place for an extra 24 hours during an OT battle, or Moses turning the staff into a serpent, or the river becoming blood ? how about the virgin birth of Christ or the resurrection for that matter?! Once we start down the slippery road of having to explain everything miraculous, then we head down an impossible path. Why? Because it’s miraculous! If
It was completely comprehend-able then it would be a miracle. Like C.S. Lewis who once said that if I could fully comprehend and explain God then He wouldn’t be God. Secondly, if you want to answer the evolutionist there are already amazing resources by amazing minds like Kent Hovind, Ken Ham and Ray Comfort, and many more! -
The story of Noah’s Flood is “Literal.”
If you think the FLOOD it’s an allegorical then you’re saying the Doctrine of “SIN” becomes a lie coz the purpose of the flood was to judge the the sins of world.
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Please read a book called “In Six Days – 50 Scientists who choose to believe in a 6 day creation” ….. The 6 days are literal, and the flood is literal. .. Did you know Science has proven through the Human Genome Project that ALL of mankind alive today have the Same MRCA (most recent common ancestor) they call Mitochondrial Eve – and all MEN alive today have the same MRCA father they call Chomoromal Adam. Now, they prove that this is not the same adam and eve becuase the MRCA Eve lived thousands of years Before the MRCA Adam… and TADAAA that Fits!! MRCA Adam is Noah! MRCA Eve is literally Eve (you can do your sums on that now ;)) .. Also Science confirms that there WAS a “Bottleneck” in the Human population thousands of years ago. and TADAAA that would be the Flood!! .. Oh there is so much evidences,, if you choose to Trust God and you look for the evidence you will find it. If you Choose to Trust Man over God you will not accept any Gods word or any evidence over Man’s fairytales…
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When you do your research, bear some things in mind like – Evolutionists use Uniformitarian Assumptions in their Methods of aging , whereas Creationist Scientists use Catastrophism Assumptions in their Methods. … Look up those two methods and tell me WHICH one makes more sense ?
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Can I have a show of hands, who in this group has actually completed formal studies in evolutionary biology?
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Here is a short 4-minute video about why there couldn’t be a worldwide flood. Regardless of what the Bible says, the evidence is still against it.
https://www.facebook.com/353442225151609/posts/845568039272356/?vh=e&d=n
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Even Militant Atheist, Richard Dawkins, admitted on camera that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical person. That being the case, then you have to consider that Jesus Christ confirmed, over and over, that EVERYONE mentioned in the Hebrew Bible was an actual historical person, including Adam & Eve, Abraham, Moses, Jonah, Elijah & Noah! First of all, Jesus said in John 5:46 – “If you had believed Moses, you would believe Me, because he wrote about Me.” In the Gospel of Luke, Jesus compares Noah’s flood with the coming Day of Judgement: “Just as it was in the days of Noah, so too it will be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man. He never said, anywhere, that the story of Noah was an allegory! Even Peter referred to Noah – 2 Peter 2:5 refers to Noah as a “preacher of righteousness”. Therefore, you either believe that Jesus was telling the Truth or He was a liar. The same goes for the Apostle Peter.
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Allegory? Genesis? And the Flood? Christians? ?
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2 Peter 3:3-7 : ‘First of all, you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come, scoffing and following their own evil desires. They will say, ‘where is this “coming” he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation.’ But they deliberately forget that long ago by God’s word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and with water. By water also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.’
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? “everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation” (Uniformatarian assumption) “deliberately forget ..(creation and the flood)” – (deliberately forget, because there is OVERWHELMING evidence of this, fossils, geographical formations etc)
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God made the earth from NOTHING. How is this allegorical?
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If Noah’s flood was allegorical or localized, then the resurrection of Christ is allegorical or salvation is localized. Scripture plainly teaches that Noah and the ark were a picture of what Christ does to shield men from the wrath of God.
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Biblical speaking, most people are not “good.” In fact, when compared to God’s standard of holiness, no one is “good.” To one degree or another, we all “fall short of the glory of God.” This does not mean that we are always actively engaged in doing evil or participating in depraved acts all the time. But it does mean that in our very nature we are “fallen,” in rebellion against God and incapable of saving ourselves.
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Please take a moment with this short article I wrote on this topic. It has my best answer. I think you’ll enjoy it! http://lightreh.blogspot.com/2016/08/a-great-flood.html?m=1
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Christians believing in evolution says God only has power to start life but depends on life to make it by itself. In other words they doubt God or really don’t believe in God.
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My answer is anyone who believes in evolution that man evolved from apes is saying God was a ape and since we are supposed to be made in His image and likeness, according to evolutionists we have strayed away from that image because we dont look like monkeys so which is true God looks like a monkey and we don’t or we are made in His image an likeness.
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Check out this YouTube video from “Inspiring Philosophy”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoPbZnRN8xQ -
As theists, we all agree that God is the creator of the universe and He can create anyway that He wants to. We should not tell God how He can and can not create things. When you build a birdcage, you aren’t automatically confined to that birdcage.
C.S. Lewis once beautifully argued that God gave us the ability to reason as a gift from Him. It’s because of that gift is why that we have the medicines to fight diseases and now the same thing with the coronavirus.
We should be humble enough to swallow our pride and follow what the evidence truly says both in God’s word and God’s world. God is not trying to trick us. We have been wrong about interpreting God’s word before with the Earth being fixed in its position and being immovable, being the center of the universe, and even now with the revival of the flat earth movement. History does repeat itself and it very clear that’s what is going on today with an old Earth and evolution.
We should not read the Bible through our modern western eyes because it was no written for us, but not to us. If we read it with modern day thoughts and ideas like dinosaurs, autism, video games, and etc, then we are reading it in ignorance because those weren’t aspects that the original audience were thinking about. Understanding the context is the most significant component when interpreting the Bible. God created reality before scripture existed. If your interpretation does not match up with God’s world, then your interpretation of the Bible is wrong.
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So theistic evolution would conclude that there are millions of years of death and decay underneath Adams feet before the fall of man in which God proclaimed that all He made was VERY GOOD! It would also call God a lier since he claimed that nothing has died before the fall of man.
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If you say creation is not literal you undermine miracles too.
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