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I would like to begin a discussion about the supposed…

6 years ago • July 15, 2020 • by ourCOG

I would like to begin a discussion about the supposed “deity of Christ”. However, the problem with forums like this is that posters do not address the specifics of the OP or even the post they are addressing. Instead, they start posting all their proof texts, clouding the discussion. I hope this thread will not go that same direction. Please address the specifics of the post.

Yeshua said, “And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Yeshua Messiah, whom you have sent.” John 17:3

In this verse, Yeshua excludes himself as the “only true God” and identifies his Father, Almighty YHWH, as the “ONLY TRUE GOD”.

How do you understand THIS SPECIFIC VERSE?

Categories: #ourCOG

Discussion

32 comments

  1. Bill Heath says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:06 am

    What does John 5:58 say?

    Reply
  2. Joe Sharpe says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:26 am

    How does this verse exclude Jesus as God? Where does it say he is NOT God?

    Reply
  3. David Harley Prince says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:27 am

    All verses need to be taken in context.
    That said, this verse partially shows the Trinity. In that there is God the Father & God the Son. Jesus most often refered to himself as the “Son of Man” in order to make that distinction.
    It is found elsewhere in the things spoken by Jesus that his divinity is revealed.

    Reply
  4. Giro Tairo says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:27 am

    Father is the only true God.

    Reply
  5. Colin Green says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:28 am

    I haven’t time to type much right now. If you go to page 127 of my book, I address your specific question there. You can read the page free online at https://www.amazon.co.uk/God-3D-Finding-Trinity-Fathers/dp/1532681216 You’ll need to click “Look Inside” and then in the search box, just type 17:3. Page 127 should then come up. You may need some context, and you can read earlier pages of the book for free in the same place in relation to “the Name”.

    Reply
  6. Eric Rankin says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:32 am

    I right away thought of Isaiah says in 9:6, “For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.”

    “Mighty God, eternal father”

    Jesus would have been very familiar with this scripture. He sat in the synagogues and read parts of Isaiah and told those who were present that what was read was fulfilled in their presence.

    Reply
  7. Donivan Felty says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:32 am

    In Jesus own words

    Revelation 21:6-7 (KJV) 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

    Reply
  8. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:33 am

    People. Read the OP directions. Address only your understanding of John 17:3. What is Yeshua saying?

    Reply
  9. Steve Bagnall says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:38 am

    I believe he’s saying that to know God is to know eternal life. But we cannot get to know God without also knowing his son

    Jesus often refers to Father God separately from himself

    Reply
  10. John Tupou says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:42 am

    So, you want an explanation of that one verse but not allowed to use any other verse in the bible to provide context?

    Reply
  11. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:01 am

    Let me explain why I gave my OP directions. Each verse has a stand alone interpretation. Yet, each verse must be understood in the context of the surrounding verses, chapter, book, testament, and Bible as a whole. However, if our understanding of other verses is not correct, then our understanding of John 17:3 will be skewed.

    We can discuss all your other verses AFTER you tell me what Yeshua is saying in the one verse.

    Reply
  12. Aaron B Lister says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:05 am

    I think the issue your post has is that we don’t/shouldn’t build doctrine on one verse, but rather look to all the verses on this topic, and those should be placed in their rightful contexts. IF this was the only verse available for discussion THEN the deity of Jesus would indeed seem questioned. But again we shouldn’t ever look at only one verse in isolation to establish doctrine.

    Reply
  13. Aldreg Soriano says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:11 am

    John Cordaro: This is the context of that verse. Jesus was praying to His Father — the one true God “Almighty”. There’s only one Almighty God. Christ is God as well — a Mighty God (Isaiah 9:6).

    His Father is higher than Him, He acknowledges that all the time. Jesus humbled Himself, deglorified when He became a man. That’s why on His prayer, He asked His Father to bring back His glory they shared even before creation.

    Hope that helps.

    Reply
  14. David Huckabay Jr says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:32 am

    2000 years ago there were many gods. The Greeks, Roman’s, and many other nations and kingdoms had multiple gods. I believe this is what Jesus was referring to when He said “only true God.” At another point Jesus said “you seen me, you’ve seen the Father.” He also said “I and the Father are one.” I believe these and others are indication that Jesus is God.

    To fully understand who Jesus is, one must study the four Gospels. In Ezekiel 1:10 four beings are seen with four faces. These same beings show up in Revelation 4. In short, each face represents a particular Gospel. The lion represents Matthew which focuses on the authority of Jesus. The ox represents servanthood as the book of Mark’s theme is the servanthood of Jesus. The human represents humanity and the book of Luke focuses on the humanity of Jesus. The eagle represents divinity as John focuses on the divinity of Jesus. The four Gospels illuminates the aspects of who Jesus is. In John chapter 1 Jesus is described as the Word who became flesh and was with God in the beginning.

    Reply
  15. Richard Spence says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:34 am

    Jesus is praying for all humans. That eternal life hinges on accepting the Lord God Almighty for Whom HE is. To accept God as our eternal Father is only possible by knowing/accepting Jesus as Whom He is. Can a father be a father without a child (the Son of the Father). L&P

    Reply
  16. Matthew Siloterio says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:37 am

    I dunno man. I think raising from the dead is pretty much “inhumane”.

    Reply
  17. Tim Kingston says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:42 am

    Quite simple. This statement is Jesus speaking from the perspective of the incarnation as a man. Christianity teaches that the Eternal Logos from John 1 became flesh in the person of Jesus. So Jesus, speaking from the position of incarnation, I.e., “taking in the form of a slave,” as Paul says in Philippians 2, can address the Father as such. By saying the Father is the only true God he was not denying that he was ontologically part of that true God, as verse 5 (2 verses later!) make clear. Moreover John 1, 5, 8, 10, 17, and 20 contain clear statements on Jesus’s divine nature, and it being the same qualitatively as the Father’s. As well, many statements are made assuming the incarnation of the Eternal Logos, like John 14:28.

    The issue is too big to jam it into one verse like you are trying to do. I suggest spending a few months reading D.A. Carson’s commentary of this gospel to help you understand the issue more fully.

    Reply
  18. Jerry Spencer says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:47 am

    John 17:3
    And this is eternal life, that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

    Reply
  19. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 11:54 am

    OK, it is time to move on from John 17:3. Most of you had a lot of trouble interpreting Yeshua’s words without citing other verses. I will assume that Aaron’s observation that John 17:3 standing alone brings the deity of Christ doctrine into question. I personally believe that John 17:3 is the foundation upon which we are to interpret all other verses that seem to suggest Yeshua is “God”.

    Reply
  20. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 12:15 pm

    Let’s discuss the word “God”. As you know, the writers of Scripture did NOT speak English. The word “God” comes from the Hebrew “elohim” or the Greek “theos”, both of which can apply to men and angels. Since the Bible teaches monotheism, and since Yeshua clearly taught that his Father is the “only true God/Elohim/Theos, then verses that use the words “elohim” or “theos” in reference to the Son should NOT be translated “God” so as not to cause confusion. A better translation would be “mighty one”.

    Reply
  21. Robert Duncan says:
    June 3, 2020 at 12:39 pm

    You can’t interpret one verse, and not consider the context, and whether it’s coherent with the rest of the Bible.

    Reply
  22. Madison Willoughby says:
    June 3, 2020 at 1:02 pm

    Jesus was a person, a human just like us, and as a person He demonstrated that we are to know the Only true God.

    Reply
  23. David Cain says:
    June 3, 2020 at 1:21 pm

    The Lord God has many dynamic forms, including Melchizedek, and the Angel of the LORD. Only God the Father is the form that has all in full effect at all times. Though Christ is a God / Yeshua, which means YHVH SAVIOR, we know that He came also in the flesh to be that worthy sacrifice. God the Father is no a form of God, and man, nor would He vacate who He is to be anything else. Christ, being a dynamic form of Himself, and by extension God, came to be God and man, to be tempted in all points, without sin, being a pure sacrifice, and fulfilling the law, while all the while being the law. He sent Himself, in one of His dynamic forms. When He ascended to heaven, He said to the disciples prior that He would send the Comforter (Holy Spirit / a dynamic form of God, the Father, but not in fullness of body, and mind).

    Only God, the Father, YHVH, knows all things. Christ said no one but THE FATHER knows the day and hour of the 2nd Advent. We know the season, and His Word (CHRIST=SPIRIT=WORD; JOHN 1; 3:16; 1 John 3:16; 4). The Holy Spirit is not visible to us, and is not in the flesh. Therefore, the flesh God / Christ & Spirit in the breath of life (air).. are dynamic forms of God.

    YHVH > & = CHRIST (YHVH SAVIOR) = HOLY SPIRIT (RUACH) = HOLY WORD…

    Acts 20:28 King James Version (KJV)
    28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

    1 Timothy 3:16 King James Version (KJV)
    16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

    1 John 4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
    2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
    3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
    5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
    6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
    7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
    8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
    9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
    10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
    11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.
    12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
    13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
    14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
    15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
    17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
    18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
    19 We love him, because he first loved us.
    20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
    21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

    Reply
  24. Chris Krumlauf says:
    June 3, 2020 at 1:24 pm

    John 17:3‭-‬6

    And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

    We also have to view this contextually. Jesus talks about the glory he had with the Father before the world was created. This is only so because as John 1 says, the Word is God and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.

    Reply
  25. Matthew Engheta says:
    June 3, 2020 at 2:33 pm

    I would argue for a hermeneutical standpoint that select verses are never read in isolation. They are to be read in the context of the whole, i.e…chapter and book. Jesus arguably demonstrates how to live and worship perfectly but he also claimed equality with God. One could argue that this verse in particular applies to the former.

    Reply
  26. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 4:41 pm

    Matthew Engheta Aldreg Soriano We are moving on to John 8:48-59. What is the key thing Yeshua wants us to learn from that passage?

    Reply
  27. Ian Hartley says:
    June 3, 2020 at 8:34 pm

    Scripture must always be interpreted with Scripture. Chapter 1 Hebrews has a lot to say about the Relationship of Jesus with His Father, 1 John 5:7 indicates the Tribune nature of God and when you read Mark 14:61-63 you see the very words Jesus said that condemned him. He proved His diety by his Resurrection. Lazarus died of Illness, Jesus was beaten, flogged, Crucified and pierced through the Heart with a Spear. After 3 x 24 hr days He was Risen, despite his Tomb being guarded by 18 Roman Soldiers. He was wrapped in linen cloth mixed with 100 lb of sticky spice. This is what John saw. https://images.app.goo.gl/zfCTw5kH3SzZf3Fc6

    Reply
  28. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:00 pm

    Well, neither brothers explained what John 8:48-59 means, so I guess I will. My commentary in brackets.

    Joh 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
    Joh 8:49 Yeshua answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
    Joh 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
    Joh 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death. [Yeshua sets the context; eternal life]
    Joh 8:52 Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death. [Again, eternal life]
    Joh 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
    Joh 8:54 Yeshua answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me (two separate beings, the Father and the Son]; of whom ye say, that he is your God: [Yeshua’s Father YHWH is proclaimed as the God of the Jews]
    Joh 8:55 Yet ye have not known him [the Father]; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
    Joh 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. [Yeshua did not say he saw Abraham or that Abraham saw him. Abraham saw Yeshua’s DAY with the eyes of faith]
    Joh 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? [The Jews misunderstood Yeshua as usual]
    Joh 8:58 Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. [I will explain this verse in more detail in my next post]
    Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Yeshua hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. [Why did the Jews seek to stone him on that occasion? The context of Jn.8 shows that Yeshua;

    1) accused the Pharisees of “judging after the flesh” (vs.15).
    2) said they would die in their sins (vss.21,24).
    3) implied they were in bondage (vss.32,33).
    4) said they were servants of sin (vs.34).
    5) said they were out to kill him (vss. 37,40).
    6) implied they were spiritually deaf (vs.43,47).
    7) said their father was the devil (vs.44).
    8) said they were not of Elohim (vs.47).
    9) accused them of dishonoring him (vs.49).
    10) accused them of not knowing Yahweh (vs.55).
    11) accused them of lying (vs.55).

    Aside from that, the Jews misunderstood Yeshua’s words leading
    them to believe;

    1) that he accused them of being born of fornication (vs.41).
    2) Yeshua had a devil (vs.52).
    3) that he was exalting himself above Abraham (vs.53).
    4) that he saw Abraham (vs.56).

    Yeshua’s words in verse 58 were the culmination of an encounter that was so offensive to the Jews that they couldn’t restrain themselves anymore. They simply couldn’t take it anymore so they sought to stone him, not because of two simple words, “ego eimi,” but because he was making himself out to be greater than their beloved father Abraham and for offending the Jews. They sought to stone him illegally.

    Reply
  29. John Cordaro says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:11 pm

    Concerning John 8:58 – The phrase “I am” is “ego eimi” in Greek. Since the Greek New Testament records Yeshua using “ego eimi” many times, Christian theologians term these sayings, “The I Am’s of Jesus.” It is believed that each of these occurrences implies Yeshua’s identity as the “I AM” of Ex.3:14. Can this be true? Can our Savior, the Son of YHWH, actually be the “I AM”?

    Ex.3:14-15 reads, “And Elohim said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and He said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And Elohim said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, YHWH, Elohim of your fathers, the Elohim of Abraham, the Elohim of Isaac, and the Elohim of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.” Therefore, the “I AM” is identified as “YHWH.”

    And what does YHWH say in Ps.2:7? “I will declare the decree: YHWH hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.” YHWH is the Father of Yeshua. Yeshua is the Son of YHWH. Yeshua is not YHWH and the Son is not the Father. Therefore, Yeshua (the Son of YHWH) cannot be the I AM (YHWH). That alone should be sufficient to discredit the belief that Yeshua was claiming to be the “I AM.” But let’s look into the matter a little farther.

    In the Greek Septuagint (LXX), Ex 3:14 reads,

    ” kai eipen ho theos pros Mousen Ego eimi ho on; kai eipen Houtos ereis tois huiois Israel Ho on apestalken me pros hymas.”

    In Septuagint English it reads, “And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you.”

    In KJV English it reads, “And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.”

    In John 8:58, “I am” is “ego eimi” in Greek. As you can see, “go eimi” in Ex 3:14 is just the prelude to what the Almighty really wanted the Israelites to know, that is, that He was the “ho on” or “the Being” or “the Existing One”.

    If Yeshua truly wanted to tell the Jews he was the great “I am” of Ex 3:14, he would have said, “Before Abraham was I am the Being” or “I am the Existing One”.

    It is believed that Jn.8:59 further supports the position that Yeshua is the “I AM.” Why else would the Jews try to stone him? He obviously blasphemed in the eyes of the Jews, a stoneable offense. Or did he? Is the mere utterance of “ego eimi” a blasphemy? Does the use of “ego eimi” automatically identify the speaker as YHWH, the I AM?

    Several individuals aside from Yeshua used “ego eimi” as well. In Lu.1:19, the angel Gabriel said, “Ego eimi Gabriel.” In Jn.9:9, the blind man whose sight was restored by Yeshua said, “Ego eimi.” In Acts 10:21, Peter said, “Behold, ego eimi (I am) he whom ye seek.” Obviously, the mere use of “ego eimi” does not equate one to the “I Am” of Ex.3:14. But perhaps the Savior’s use of it was somehow different. After all, he came down from heaven.

    If, in fact, Yeshua spoke Greek to the Jews (which I doubt), he used the phrase “ego eimi” at least twenty times and yet, in only one instance did the Jews seek to stone him (Jn.8:58). Yeshua said, “I am the bread of life” to a large crowd in Jn.6:35 & 48, yet no one opposed him. In verse 41, the Jews murmured because he said, “I am (ego eimi) the bread which came down from heaven.” But in verse 42, the Jews questioned only the phrase, “I came down from heaven” and ignored “ego eimi.” The same is true of verses 51 & 52.

    In Jn.8:12, 18, 24, & 28, Yeshua used “ego eimi” with Pharisees present (vs.13) and yet, no stoning. He, again, used it four times in Jn.10:7, 9, 11, & 14 with no stoning. Yeshua said to his disciples, “…that…ye may believe that I am (ego eimi)” in Jn.13:19 without them batting an eye.

    Reply
  30. Grant Reedy says:
    June 3, 2020 at 10:38 pm

    God is all things can’t be one thing and Christ is the manifestation and expression of all things and which is driven by the power of God in all things.
    Get your head around that and you are doing well.

    Reply
  31. John Soulliere says:
    June 4, 2020 at 2:27 am

    Context. You don’t build doctrine on a single verse. Jesus also said “if you have seen me you have seen the Father. I and the father are one. “

    Reply
  32. Joseph Michael says:
    June 4, 2020 at 4:46 am

    John Cordaro id like to debate you lol ?? on our own comments here. Just me vs you ??

    Reply

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