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Steve Conley here is the actual original text which James C. Morris discusses plainly in his book that you are YET to consider honestly with Philip Williams and Costas Cleater
It disproves confounds confutes, debunks, s disconfirm, discredits, and falsify rebuts and your SECOND point which is funny since you are looking into the ENGLISH someone butchered and make your premise on words like this and therefore that my friend are NOT even in the original Greek writing of Irenaeus. You are making assumptions based on words that are NOT even in the text and you cannot show in any way shape form or capacity that these words are there – but this is true to all your illogical assumptions made on things that are just not there THE TRUTH is Irenaeus connects the Scriptural references of Enoch, Elijah, and Paul being raptured and applies it to what will happen in the future with the consummation of all things when the saints will return with Christ.
For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up. For by means of the very same hands through which they were moulded at the beginning, did they receive this translation and assumption…. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality.
LATER Around 250 A.D., Cyprian also used the word in reference to Paul “even after his rapture to the third heaven and paradise…” From the use of the word in early Latin Christian authors, it is clearly meant to be understood as being raised up to heaven, and in the case of Elijah specifically we can know that it was bodily, while Paul himself discussed whether it was “in the body… or out of the body” (2 Corinthians 12:2).
It is obvious that, both Elijah and Enoch experienced the same “rapture” which in the New Testament refers to as “translated” [μετετθη, μετεθηκεν] “translation” [μεταθεσεως] (Hebrew 11:5) which means “transfer or transport, exchange, change or carry.” Clement of Alexandria Identifies, again, a bodily resurrection in connection with the idea of translation. “Further the Gospel says, that many bodies of those that slept arose,— plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Saviour.”
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Steve Conley To your Third and final FALSE point where you read Irenaeus writing about AFTER the tribulation and Israel and your quite falsely interpret to say it is for the church during the Tribulation WHICH BTW is NOT true since Irenaeus already told us the Church has been taken away in the rapture. If we broaden the contextual scope before and after Irenaeus’s statement you single out with the purpose of forcing it to say what you need to prove your false point, it will be seen that he clearly makes additional statements that the Church will encounter the Antichrist after the7 years of the Tribulation as it returns victorious with Christ and wins the battle of Armageddon. The following relevant statements by Irenaeus that your omit shows that clearly:
And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. (Against Heresies, V, 26, 1) – obviously chronology
After the rapture of the church Irenaeus plainly tells us
10 kings shall arise
Babylon destroyed
Kingdom of the beast
put the Church to flight in Armageddon
Just read Revelation and tell me WHEN is Babylon destroyed ? It is a clear chronological marker showing Irenaeus and the early church as pre-trib And he proceeds to tell us that
It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy [the Antichrist], than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. . . . But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man [the Antichrist] comes we may avoid him (Against Heresies, V, 30, 3, 4)
Obviously IF you are on earth during the Tribulation you cannot AVOID the Antichrist Book of Revelation tells us so. Except if you are raptured before he appears in order to avoid him as Rev 3:10 promises to the TRUE CHURCH-
Troy Day of course you could have avoided the antichrist during the tribulation.
A lot of people did and have.
That is just one of your great assumptions and misconceptions.
If you look at this question through historicist eyes and look at the antichrist as an expanding national identity, it was a matter of fleeing from the advancing enemy.
That’s not the endtime rapture, but simply what Irenaeus is describing – escape. -
Neil Steven Lawrence Zachary Uram James C. Morris not to toot my own horn by this is a good theological point here After all when the BIBLE says it, Jesus says, Paul says and the church fathers say it what more can any modern interpreter add? They just fold and 10-4 Philip Williams
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Rob Burr naaah I got a good discussion on HOW can the church survive the Tribulation – it plainly cannot The American church cannot survive a small corona bug nonetheless the antichrist bug I should be able to post with tho its a bit of a modern prophecy with the permission by our brethren James C. Morris and Zachary Uram here
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Troy Day you have no idea.
I know you’re wrong because I know who the Anrichrist was and is and the identity of the Whore City, Babylon the Great.
You, James C. Morris and Zachary Uram are only guessing like all literalists and futurists because your interpretation is being perverted by ‘principalities and powers’ as St Paul said. -
Rob Burr I believe you to be wrong in your assumption in this OP James C. Morris Zachary Uram and myself cannot be wrong in anything here since we are only citing Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5 in this OP Are you saying Irenaeus himself was wrong in the citation above and you know more and better than Irenaeus himself and the church fathers? Against Heresies was written precisely to debunk such extra-Biblical knowledge as you claim in your last comment #ohWell
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Rob Burr so – the people who actually believe what the Bible says are wrong, because YOU know what the Bible does NOT say?
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Vladir Arienzo Junior through the years we’ve compiled a vast digital resource center for our students at the school where we teach Sadly it is too large to share on the internet legally However, in a few rare cases we can share references as the one above when is needed to show how noob interpreters of ancient writings are not considering the actual original but sticking to English words that are not even in the text alike Steve Conley has done on so many occasions Neil Steven Lawrence Sadly others like Rob Burr would not even consider reading the book or watch the video without taking their presupposed doctrinal glasses off and therefore shall never see the Truth to set them free from their man made false teachings
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Troy Day Ok, I understand your legal concern as to sharing the book on the internet. Can you at least say the name of the book so I can buy it? I found it very interesting.
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Troy Day I read it. But I thought it was a different book. Thank you, brother!
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Rob Burr miscontrue is actually NOT a word without the silent S
I misconstrue none since I simply quote Irenaeus chapter
29, at the end of section 1,“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught there shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be‟
it is what it is – How you interpret it as something else than pre-trib position is the mystery of the centuries. Perhaps once again you are commenting without watching the video or reading what the man plainly wrote https://ourcog.org/irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/
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Troy Day pity Dr Gause doesn’t use Irenaeus’ commentary to support his pre trib rapture position.
Maybe he knows something you don’t.
As for the video, he starts with his pretrib rapture view, but only tries to argue it in relation to the other futurist views – mid and post trib.
Like most futurists, he accepts a future millennium as well.
I see little Holy Spirit anointing and no Holy Spirit councelling here.
It is a crying shame that ‘Pentecostal’ theologians have been sucked into these false interpretations by Darby and Lindsey et al, without consulting the Lord first. -
Rob Burr I think Neil Steven Lawrence can tell us exactly but I believe Dr Gause is with the Lord and knows a LOT more than any of us. He has also probably drilled ol’ Irenaeus on the rapture and they concur on its pre-trib timing just dont know the exact day; which we shall ALL learn soon after which some shall be left behind. Plain and simple HOPE for ETERNITY that this world did not give us and this world cant take away #AMEN
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