Purgatory. Never been a fan, not found in scripture. Christ didn’t tell the thief on the next cross that He’d see him in a couple millennia when his sins had been purged. He said “today”.
However—He also said (Matthew 12:30-32) that there is but one sin (blasphemy against the Holy Spirit) that cannot be forgiven ‘in this world, or the world to come’, which raises the question of a mechanism of forgiveness after earthly death.
Thoughts?
Following
“Or the world to come” closes that door to me
The only sin that can not be forgiven is rejecting Christ or as you said blasphemy against the spirit both are the same and the sentence is strait to hell out of the presence of Christ
Jesus says in John 3 they are condemned already because they have not believed in Him
The difference is in your understanding, which is understandable because you (as most) don’t understand Jesus’ use of semeron with the dying thief.
When you die you’re dead. You stay dead in the dust..no purgatory…no heaven or hell…the grave…UNTIL the resurrection of the dead. Some will live in the new world and some will die the second death.
Blasphemy is to speak evil of.
It’s not a single act but a consistent rejection of the love and grace that could have been theirs. That’s why they will be in torment forever for their terrible decision
Don’t believe in “purgatory” for say, but it is something worth discussing. Most of what people think they know about purgatory, doesn’t come from the Catholic catechism, but rather from the book Dante’s Inferno. The catechism says purgatory is ” either a place or a process” that removes any residual sin. Dante’s Inferno runs with the idea it is a place. A level of hell. There is no Biblical background for this thought.
However: we do read from the Bible that after death we will be “purified by fire” burning the chaff and leaving the precious stones. We also read in Isaiah’s vision of him saying.”woe woe woe. I am un done for I am a man of unclean lips”. But then an angel grabbed a piece of coal and purified his lips.
The Bible gives no mention to pain or unpleasantness in this “purifying fire”. However the lips are a extra sensitive area of our bodies and in our current flesh, a burn on the mouth would hurt.
I don’t know how necessary it is to be cought up on a word like “purgatory”. But the Bible does give some evidence to a final sanctification process involving fire. Not a place. But perhaps an instantaneous “process” of the final purging of sin. I don’t think we have enough Biblical evidence to make a huge study of this. But it is interesting to ponder.
When Jesus said that yo the thief, what happened after wards? Jesus himself didn’t go to heaven. He went to the tomb for 3 days & then resurrected & walked the earth for 40 more before being ascended.
I’d be interested to understand more about how this applies to new believers. If someone was an atheist and spoke against Christianity before their true knowledge of who Jesus was, can they be forgiven?
It’s a Catholic doctrine.
That’s a very interesting question, and Jeremy is pleased. ;^D Well… I got it. There *are* things that are not forgiven in this world that will be forgiven overall, because all sin is forgiven the Christian in Christ. Those things that are not forgiven in this world are things that we continue to get wrong. Other people might not forgive you about those, because you’re still doing them and might continue to do those wrongs to the grave ..but God forgave you it when Christ died and covered it with His blood. So, the word “forgive” has two differentiable meanings – to not have it held against you in the popular and temporary way, and to not have it held against you in the technical and eternal way. Did I get it; thoughts?
Laying down what were know:
/ just chipping in:
1. What is the basis, or what justifies forgiveness of sins?
The shedding of blood.
2. How is a person saved?
Imputed righteousness.
3. How is this righteousness imputed?
Faith in the solid work of Jesus on the cross.
4. What else do we know?
Man shall die once and there after judgment.
Some other questions / guess:
5. In the three days in the belly of the earth, what was Jesus preaching? Good news? Bad news?
6. What’s the impact whether good news or bad?
7. Does the forgiveness by the shedding of blood extends to afterlife also?
8. Supposing Jesus shared the good news of victory with the dead, would anyone there still reject him?
The two facets on sanctification are forgiveness and removal of the temporal punishment. One can be forgiven and still have to pay restitution as a consequence. If I am a Christian and commit major sins but repent of them all before I die then it is needed that remaining attachments to the pleasures of my sins be cleansed. With different wording Catholics and Protestants are agreed on that more than one would think. Catholics are just a bit more precise on that. As for more scriptural evidence two out of three branches of Christianity affirm 2 Maccabees 12:46 which deals with that. And 1 Corinthians 3 1-7 strongly suggests purgatory as the only interpretation. “Saved by fire”. If you are in hell’s fire then you are not saved. If you are in heaven then you are saved with no firer of judgment in any context to speak of.
One of the reasons why our faith is at times so faint & feeble is because our thoughts of GOD ‘re not great enough. Perhaps, you ‘re hurt, betrayed by someone you trusted or lost special ones to sickness, death, plagues. Listen, the good Lord hasnt ran out of plans, either as He forasken [Isaiah 55:8-9; Jeremiah 29:11] Do not set ya problem againt the visions of GOD. Stop viewing ya difficulties as the almighty, The Lord alone is Almighty.
Prayer:
LORD GOD, forgive me that l ‘ve been thinking You ‘re unable to help me. Fix my vision with Yourself, for l see that when l do not view You as Almighty, l easily view my problems in that way. I look at You & my heart cries out in godly reverence & fear. Draw me closer to Your throne of grace. Thank You for this greater assurance with you now in Jesus’name, amen!
One of the reasons why our faith is at times so faint & feeble is because our thoughts of GOD ‘re not great enough. Perhaps, you ‘re hurt, betrayed by someone you trusted or lost special ones to sickness, death, plagues. Listen, the good Lord hasnt ran out of plans, either as He forasken [Isaiah 55:8-9; Jeremiah 29:11] Do not set ya problem againt the visions of GOD. Stop viewing ya difficulties as the almighty, The Lord alone is Almighty.
Prayer:
LORD GOD, forgive me that l ‘ve been thinking You ‘re unable to help me. Fix my vision with Yourself, for l see that when l do not view You as Almighty, l easily view my problems in that way. I look at You & my heart cries out in godly reverence & fear. Draw me closer to Your throne of grace. Thank You for this greater assurance with you now in Jesus’name, amen!
A “sheol” kind of place that is a holding prison unto judgement when death and Hell are thrown into the fire in Revelations. We must also think of Abrahams bussom, but Jesus went the when He descended to them. Nothing about purgatory.
It might seem at first glance that this idea of purgatory enables the Catholic church to control the people? When an authority figure controls the amount of time you spend in the “on deck circle” they have much spiritual muscle over you. How much time do you need to spend there? How can you get time served? Why was Jesus’ death on the cross enough to provide salvation?
Purgatory was made up by the catholic church to gather money and tell them the more they give where there loved ones are that will get them to Heaven. Never blaspheme against the Holy Ghost.
It is appointed for man to die then face judgment.
I think purgatory is a misguided concept that, as you say, is not found, at least directly, in the teachings of Jesus. It is therefore, not a necessary part of the Faith. I understand blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to be continually attributing to something else actions that are in fact those of God. Jesus makes the statement as the Pharisees are attributing Jesus removing evil spirits to Jesus being from an evil spirit. They are attributing the work of God to someone else.
No forgiveness after death
Purgatory? Hell no! Heavens above!
There is no purgatory but there is sheol/hades/gehenna/the pit/ Abraham’s bossom
There is no forgiveness after death. The world to come is the world you enter at death.
No mechanism, only intermediate state of the dead.
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