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https://forhimforever.com/prophecy/ezekiel-38-war/
Which comes first, the Ezekiel 38 war or the Rapture of the Church?
Discussion
40 comments
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RUSSIA is ON the move via cyber warfare this election Seems like a political move but it is very very eschatological Meanwhile AG cog PHC and others are moving toward kingdom-now NAR end time beliefs and are missing the mark #LEFT behind they shall be all LEFT BEHIND is for the leftist democrats #TheEnd
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Terry Wiles res16 shut down NAR for good They shall never recover to take over the 7 mountains of the 7 larger Pentecostal denominations shall never occur We explain why pre-wrath is just another man made forntology from the 90s here https://www.facebook.com/groups/eschatology.end.times/permalink/1696685777175513/
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It’s simple, Ezek 38:18-22 says the Gog and magog war ends with the 2nd coming of the lord to bring the day of the lord final judgment. The rapture according to 1 Thess 4:14-16 happens at the 2nd coming of christ when he descends from heaven with his great shout. Hence the 2nd coming and rapture ends the war of Gog and brings the final judgment. So the rapture of the 6th seal occurs at the end of the gog and magog war which is the qnd coming. Zech 14 which is also about this same war says the 2nd coming of christ as a man of war with his holy ones is what ends the war and brings judgment upon the nations
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Troy Day brother 1 Thess 4 doesn’t say the rapture occurs 7yrs before the 2bd coming. Notice in 1 Thess 4:14-16, it occurs at THE COMING of THE LORD when he descends from heaven. The coming of the lord is a phrase known as the parousia used to decrube his return at the 2nd coming. 1 Cor 15:23, 50-52 also affirms this. 2 Thess 2 :1-3,8 says the coming of the lord is the day of the lord when he brings judgment to the man of din whom he will slay with the breath of his lips. 2 peter 3:4-12 says the coming of the lord in which the heavens and earth pass away and sinners are judged , it is the day of the lord v9, , just as Rev 6:12-17 shows. Then finally 1 Thess 3:13 and 1 Thess 4 :14says the coming of the lord is when he appears with ALL his holy ones. Thus it shows the coming of the lord is the 2nd coming of Rev 19:11, and Zech 14:5. This is why 1 Thess 4:14 speaks of Christ bringing with him those who are asleep in Jesus. Then proceeds to show us that occurs at his coming in which he descends from heaven with a shout to resurrect and rapture them together with the living in the cloud to meet him in the air. Thus the holy ones come with christ on that day through the resurrection and rapture at his descent. This shows the rapture is at the 2nd coming. It is the gathering of the elect with the great trumpet which is also seen in Matt 24:29-3 at the 2nd coming. Look into these texts as well as Isa 26:17-21, and Rev 7.
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Troy Day Dear brother where in 1 Thess 4:14-16 does it say the rapture happens 7 years before the 2nd coming? Which verse? Thank you.
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Arnold Rajan Thess 4:14-16 was rapture reference by Martin Asare My verse references were listed in the main post My main reference was v17 which Martin committed on purpose since it does not fit his frontology which he holds Martin is yet to give us his eschatological plan if he has any Here is MY verse again
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
If you need more verses on the rapture, just ASK BTW as James C. Morris pointed out this OP is on EZEK so pls STAY on topic and keep up if you can yall
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Syria will have suffered a horrendous defeat, having their capital of Damascus completely destroyed in a nuclear attack in one evening!
Jeremiah 49:23-26
Against Damascus. “Hamath and Arpad are shamed, for they have heard bad news. They are fainthearted; there is trouble on the sea; it cannot be quiet. Damascus has grown feeble; she turns to flee, and fear has seized her. Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor. Why is the city of praise [Jerusalem] not deserted, the city of My joy? Therefore her young men shall fall in her [Damascus] streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the LORD of hosts.Isaiah 17:1,9,14
1 An oracle concerning Damascus: “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins.
9 In that day their strong cities, which they left because of the Israelites, will be like places abandoned to thickets and undergrowth. And all will be desolation.
14 In the evening, sudden terror! Before the morning, they are gone! This is the portion of those who loot us, the lot of those who plunder us.The nations of the world will see this nuclear attack and they will panic. They will cause such a stir with their moaning and complaining against Israel, their roar will sound like the rushing waves of the sea. They will try to stop Israel but God turns them away.
Isaiah 17:12, 13
Woe to the multitude of many people, [which] make a noise like the noise of the seas; and to the rushing of nations, [that] make a rushing like the rushing of mighty waters! The nations shall rush like the rushing of many waters: but [God] shall rebuke them, and they shall flee far off, and shall be chased as the chaff of the mountains before the wind, and like a rolling thing before the whirlwind. -
Martin Asare
The theory of the Rapture has paralysed the true Church of Jesus Christ more than any other teaching in the last 150 years. It has created a false hope, a hope of the Church escaping its purpose and apostolic mandate. It has alienated the Church from its true apostolic mission, responsibility, inheritance, and ultimately, from the gospel of the Kingdom. Therefore, the Church struggles to understand its dominion mandate.The Church should not be looking to escape, but rather to saturate the earth with the message of the gospel of the Kingdom. One of the most damaging effects on the Church is the futuristic mindset the Rapture Theory has created – viewing everything that is good, as always in the future or in heaven, but not for the here and now.
Jesus corrected Martha on this in John 11:24-25.
The glory of God and the resurrection that He spoke of was not only for the last day, but is a living reality for the present. We do not have to wait to die and go to glory. He has already given us His glory to impact the world with His presence. -
Laurie Lombard The RAPTURE has empowered the Church into anticipation in holiness unto the Hope for Eternity No other eschatology gives such optimistic outcome for the Church NOT even NAR’s a-mil Terry Wiles We explain why pre-wrath is just another man made forntology from the 90s here https://www.facebook.com/groups/eschatology.end.times/permalink/1696685777175513/
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Troy Day I’m telling you the doctrine is changing at the level of the “millennials”. There is a steady slide toward Kingdom Now and liberation theology.
I’m with you on the chart.
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Terry Wiles I am sorry my dear brother, but I am not of the habit of posting on social media while in church. Especially when I am preaching in the pulpit and ministering in the altar. I will be happy to address your concern if it is theologically presented on another day when we are not ALL in church as well as we should be. But I tell you now that you are right and post-mil or pre-wrath like Martin Asare shall be LEFT BEHIND
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I believe it will occur after the Rapture but before the 70th week begins.
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We explain why pre-wrath is just another man made forntology from the 90s here https://www.facebook.com/groups/eschatology.end.times/permalink/1696685777175513/
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Revelation 11 says ‘the same hour’.
Given the context, it could mean within months of each other-
Israel has just gone through a horrible and furious war between its neighbors, the war described in Psalm 83 and elsewhere is now over. Israel’s borders have expanded dramatically, forever changing the landscape of power in the region. Fulfilling the promise of Jeremiah 49:2, Israel will then look something like this:
Jeremiah 49:2
Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will cause to be heard an alarm of war In Rabbah of the Ammonites; It shall be a desolate mound, And her villages shall be burned with fire. Then Israel shall take possession of his inheritance,” says the LORD.Egypt will have witnessed this onslaught that Israel unleashes and will tremble in fear.
Isaiah 19:16-17
In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them. And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the LORD Almighty is planning against them.
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Answering those who dismiss Jeremiah 49 regarding the future of #ISRAEL
Is the beginning of the end of the world upon us? Well, that depends upon who you ask.
In case you haven’t noticed, End Times theology has become a hot topic in media this summer. From discussions surrounding Syria and its alleged role in Biblical prophesy to grander curiosities about Jesus Christ’s supposed Second Coming, the debate over these themes has been a spirited one, as TheBlaze recently noted. And as supporters continuously speak out, critics of End Times theology are vocal of late, highlighting their contention that applying Old Testament Bible verses to future unforeseen events and happenings is haphazard (we highlighted some of the main arguments against this prophetic inclination in past coverage of the issue).
Considering these critiques, TheBlaze once again interviewed author and Bible expert Joel Rosenberg to see what he has to say in response to those who disagree with his interpretation of scripture. Rosenberg, who believes that Isaiah 17:1-3, among other verses, highlight what’s to come, attempted to poke holes in counterarguments, charging that those who dismiss the view that the Bible holds many keys to the End Times fail to see the full picture.
As a refresher, Isaiah 17:1-3 reads, “See, Damascus will no longer be a city but will become a heap of ruins. The cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks, which will lie down, with no one to make them afraid. The fortified city will disappear from Ephraim, and royal power from Damascus; the remnant of Aram will be like the glory of the Israelites,’ declares the Lord Almighty.” Considering the current international conflict, this is obviously capturing attention. Some critics dismiss the application of these verses to future prophecy and note that Damascus has been attacked numerous times throughout its history. Thus, they believe prophecy has already been fulfilled. Some hold that there’s no remaining foresight at any level and simply believe that what is described already unfolded in 732 B.C.
1. Damascus Has Been Attacked Before, But… TheBlaze asked Rosenberg to respond to this latter claim and he noted, first and foremost, that Damascus certainly has been attacked in the past – but the Bible expert added an important caveat: Damascus has never ceased to be a city, something that Rosenberg believes is clearly prophesied in Isaiah 17.
“There’s no question that Damascus has been attacked and conquered numerous times through history. Nobody is debating that,” said the author. “The question is whether the actual text has come to fulfillment.”
Rosenberg pointed out a unique fact about Damascus, the capital of Syria: It is one of the oldest continuously inhabited cities on the earth. It is first mentioned in Genesis and yet it still appears in modern-day headlines.
While he agrees that the 732 B.C. attack undeniably unfolded (Isaiah 7 and 8 predict this event, Rosenberg believes), he also holds that the prophesy in Isaiah 17:1-3 hasn’t yet been fulfilled, because Damascus continued to be a city following the attack by the Assyrians — and it remains an active and inhabited locality even today.
2. Rosenberg Says Isaiah Didn’t Receive the Prophecy Until After 732 B.C. Rosenberg’s second argument is that Isaiah, in the expert’s estimation, didn’t receive the contents of Isaiah 17 until after 732 B.C. If this is true, it would mean that the Assyrian attack on Damascus was not what was being referenced in the text.
“It’s true that Isaiah prophesied about the conquering of Damascus — that happens in chapter 7 and 8 — and that is exactly what came to fulfillment in 732 B.C., but in chapter 14, in verse 28, Isaiah says something that’s fascinating and relevant,” argued the author.
Isaiah 14:28 reads, “This prophecy came in the year King Ahaz died.” Rosenberg believes this line is key to the debate. Since King Ahaz (king of Judah) died around 710 B.C., Rosenberg (who said the year of death was closer to 715 B.C.) runs through some logic that would, at the least, force his critics to respond with their own timeline of events. Perhaps only the text in Isaiah 14 and not 17 came in 710, but regardless the language does create some questions.
“This means that the prophesies of Isaiah 17 were not given to the prophet until 715 B.C., which is nearly two decades after the conquering of Damascus [in 732], so this helps us have assurance that Isaiah 17 wasn’t fulfilled in 732,” he continued.
Rosenberg said that it’s easy to overlook the verse referencing the king – one that seemingly provides context to Isaiah 17. The 732 B.C. prophesy, Rosenberg argues, gives Isaiah credibility, however what he promises in chapter 17 has yet to, in the Bible expert’s view, come to fruition.
“When he gives us end times prophesies, we can be assured that those will happen one day because the other things he had said had already come true,” Rosenberg told TheBlaze.
3. Isaiah 17 Isn’t the Only Alleged Prophecy to Come The “Damascus Countdown” author also notes that it’s not only Isaiah 17 that makes apparent End Times references. You have to look at Jeremiah, too.
While the Syria conflict has shed light on the first three verses of that chapter, Rosenberg made it clear that Isaiah 11 through 24 is filled with “big picture” prophesies that he believes are set to take place in the future. These even include timestamps, Rosenberg claims.
“It’s really sad what the Bible says will happen to Damascus one day and I’m not saying that I know when it will happen,” he added. “I don’t know when these prophesies will come to pass. Will they happen in our lifetime? Well, they could.”
Regardless of where people stand on the issue, Rosenberg said that it’s important for individuals to be aware of what is said in the scriptures. The impact of the End Times — and the theories surrounding the controversial theology — are worth understanding, he told TheBlaze. Rosenberg also recommends that people who are interested in the subject read a parallel passage in Jeremiah 49:23-27 – a prophetic word that he believes couldn’t have possibly happened in 732 B.C., as Jeremiah wasn’t born yet (he died in 570 B.C.).
“It backs up Isaiah 17 and gives us more details and it comes in a section about End Times prophecies,” he said. “It refers to the judgment of Iran, which was known at that time as Elam.”
Rosenberg noted that these verses, again, describe Damascus. Here are those scripture references:
End Times Bible Expert Joel Rosenberg Delivers 3 Key Reasons Why Those Dismissing Syria Related Prophecies May Be Dead Wrong
https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/ezekiels-boneyard-is-shaking-again/
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Troy Day
1. Battle of Gog
2. Israel Rebuilds the Temple
3. Rapture (Christ remains in the clouds)
4. Great Tribulation
5. Battle of Armeggedon
6. 2nd Coming of Christ (out of the clouds)
7. 1000 Year Reign of Christ on the earth -
Troy Day when did I say I was prewrath? I explained my view. Its post tribulational, and at the 2nd coming before the final judgment which is the wrath of God meted out by Christ at his coming
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What is Aroer? Isaiah 17:1-3 also claims that “the cities of Aroer will be deserted and left to flocks.” Considering that this often gets little attention (after all, if Damascus’ destruction has apparently yet to come, what about “Aroer?”) TheBlaze asked for Rosenberg’s understanding of the word.
“The word Aroer in Hebrew means ruins. It comes from a root word, which can be interpreted — it either means destitute, stripped naked or it can also be translated in other places as a bush or a tree,” explained Rosenberg, noting that there are questions about whether it’s a proper name or a descriptor. He added that the Bible does name at least a few small towns by this name that are located far away from Damascus.
If Aroer is a separate location, critics could argue – pending there’s evidence of an attack – then the verses have already come to fruition or are baseless, as Aroer is no longer a standing locality. But Rosenberg tends to lean against the idea that the word is referencing a specific place, siding with those who believe it really just means “ruins.” “I personally lean against the idea that it’s referencing these specific three small largely unknown places…not a lot happened there of Biblical import,” he said.
There’s No Definitive Timeline Rosenberg encouraged cautiousness when attributing current events to scriptures written long ago and he noted that there is no solid timeline through which people can presume when the End Times might unfold. “Neither Isaiah 17 nor Jeremiah 49 give us any detail about precisely when these prophecies will come to pass,” Rosenberg said. “We know that they would happen prior to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, because there aren’t judgments that are happening during the Millennial Kingdom” (Christ’s reign before the final judgment). These events, he insists, will happen sometime between today and Jesus’ return.
“The
Israel has just gone through a horrible and furious war between its neighbors, the war described in Psalm 83 and elsewhere is now over. Israel’s borders have expanded dramatically, forever changing the landscape of power in the region. Fulfilling the promise of Jeremiah 49:2, Israel will then look something like this:
Jeremiah 49:2 Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “That I will cause to be heard an alarm of war In Rabbah of the Ammonites; It shall be a desolate mound, And her villages shall be burned with fire. Then Israel shall take possession of his inheritance,” says the LORD.
Egypt will have witnessed this onslaught that Israel unleashes and will tremble in fear.
Isaiah 19:16-17 In that day the Egyptians will be like women. They will shudder with fear at the uplifted hand that the LORD Almighty raises against them. And the land of Judah will bring terror to the Egyptians; everyone to whom Judah is mentioned will be terrified, because of what the LORD Almighty is planning against them.
Syria will have suffered a horrendous defeat, having their capital of Damascus completely destroyed in a nuclear attack in one evening!
Jeremiah 49:23-26 Against Damascus. “Hamath and Arpad are shamed, for they have heard bad news. They are fainthearted; there is trouble on the sea; it cannot be quiet. Damascus has grown feeble; she turns to flee, and fear has seized her. Anguish and sorrows have taken her like a woman in labor. Why is the city of praise [Jerusalem] not deserted, the city of My joy? Therefore her young men shall fall in her [Damascus] streets, and all the men of war shall be cut off in that day,” says the LORD of hosts. There is ALSO this NEW RESEARCH ON EZEKIEL’S VISION OF THE END https://www.pentecostaltheology.com/the-prophecy-that-is-shaping-history-new-research-on-ezekiels-vision-of-the-end/
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Please Read Revelation 20 for Clearer interpretation and the sequence of events – Rapture, Gog and Magog and etc. Thank you all
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Here is described the purpose of bringing these nations to Israel, so that the heathen might know the Lord. This is a prophecy that has been proclaimed, studied, read and deciphered for thousands of years and finally it takes place. This gives such a testimony on the validity of the word of God, where millions will come to know him over such truths.
Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, [that] my fury shall come up in my face. For in my jealousy [and] in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that [are] upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man’s sword shall be against his brother. And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that [are] with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I [am] the LORD.This time it is not Israel that fights back and wins the victory, it is the Lord himself! Confusion sweeps through the ranks as they enter Israel’s territory. Russia, along with Iran, Libya and Turkey will invade with a massive army, described as a cloud covering the land. A great earthquake will strike the land as God’s fury is unleashed. Floods, great hailstones, fire from heaven will obliterate the attacking armies, giving no other answer as to how this happened other than by God’s own hand!
Israel will see God giving them this victory and this will cause such a stir in their hearts that they will tear down the dome of the rock and set out to rebuild their Temple. This is not the response God was looking for. In fact, this is the last straw for the Lord. So much so that he now allows the Antichrist to be made known as the Great Tribulation is ushered upon us.
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Ezekiel 38 and 39 contain five distinct “date stamps” which clearly show that it cannot take place before the time of the Antichrist (three details) or before the end of the seventieth week (two details.) and one of the last two details also shows that it has to take place before the millennium.
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AGREED This war will have laid waste to every minor nation in the area that has called for the destruction of Israel. And possibly because of an earlier surgical military strike against Iran, Israel will be temporarily at peace. This now transitions into the period described in Ezekiel 38 where Israel is at peace and is soon attacked by Iran, Russia, Libya and Turkey. Israel will be overflowing with wealth from the spoils of war. They will be in possession of vast oil fields from the Northwest portions of Saudi Arabia. They will have treasures from Egypt and vast fortunes from Syria and Jordan’s Kingdom. This will pose as quite the temptation for Russia as Iran plots their revenge.
Ezekiel 38:11-14
And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates, To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places [that are now] inhabited, and upon the people [that are] gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land. Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil? Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know [it]?Israel will be fat and at peace, proudly relishing the spoils of war as they celebrate their victory over such foes. Can you fathom the fury in the remaining Muslims when Israel, land of the Jews, has control of much of Saudi Arabia, home of Mecca, their most holy city?
Ezekiel 38: 15, 16
And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.
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Jordan, because of their traitorous actions, will now be under Israeli control. This fact becomes crucially important later on during the Tribulation because the surviving remnant of Israel will be forced to flee into Jordan’s hills, escaping the Antichrist.
Obadiah 1:19
19 The South shall possess the mountains of Esau [Southern Jordan], and the Lowland shall possess Philistia [Gaza Strip]. They shall possess the fields of Ephraim and the fields of Samaria [West Bank]. Benjamin shall possess Gilead [West Bank & Golan Heights].And Egypt will have gone at least partially under Israeli control as well.
Isaiah 19:18-19
18 In that day five cities in the land of Egypt will speak the language of Canaan and swear by the LORD of hosts; one will be called the City of Destruction. 19 In that day there will be an altar to the LORD in the midst of the land of Egypt, and a pillar to the LORD at its border.
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Ezekiel’s
prediction that Israel will be
invaded by Russia and several Arab
allies, including Libya, in the last days.
This prophecy is found in Ezekiel 37-39.
Its setting is given as the time when
Israel will be regathered from among
the nations of the earth and brought
back into her own land. This regathering is described in chapter 37 of
Ezekiel’s prophecy as occurring in two
stages: a physical return to the land and
a spiritual rebirth in the land. This is
followed by the prediction of an overwhelming invasion of the land vividly
described in chapters 38-39.
The Magog prophecy, as it is often
called, is one of the most unusual in all
the Bible and has never yet been fulfilled.
Medieval scholars tended to view Magog
as the Turks, a view that prevailed even
until Puritan times. The Turks were a
natural choice since they were the
major enemies of Judaism and Christendom at that time, and their location
approximated that of Magog in Ezekiel’s
description. The identification of Magog
as Russia can be traced back to the time
of Martin Luther and was well established among dispensationalists by the
end of the nineteenth century.
In 1909, prior to the Bolshevik
Revolution, the Scofield Bible clearly
identified Magog as Russia. Dispensational scholars have generally followed
that identity ever since. This view is
certainly not new, nor is it limited to the
current crisis with Libya. It has had a
long line of proponents: C.I. Scofield,
J. Frank Norris, William Pettingill, Alva
McClain, Harry Rimmer, John Walvoord,
J. Dwight Pentecost, Richard DeHaan,
Theodore Epp, W. A. Criswell, and more
recently, Hal Lindsay. https://www.haaretz.com/world-news/armenia-publishes-photos-of-wreckage-it-says-is-su-25-warplane-shot-down-by-turkey-1.9197069 -
For those of us who believe in a POST-Trib Rapture, Ezekiel 38:1-6 could either represent Armageddon (which would mean that the Rapture would happen right at the very END of the BATTLE) or Ezekiel 38:1-6 could represent the Final Millennial Battle (in which case the Rapture would have happened 1000 years earlier). However, Ezekiel 38:7-23 clearly represents the FINAL MILLENNIAL BATTLE (in which case the Rapture would have already happened 1000 years earlier).
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Isaiah 14:28 reads, “This prophecy came in the year King Ahaz died.” Rosenberg believes this line is key to the debate. Since King Ahaz (king of Judah) died around 710 B.C., Rosenberg (who said the year of death was closer to 715 B.C.) runs through some logic that would, at the least, force his critics to respond with their own timeline of events. Perhaps only the text in Isaiah 14 and not 17 came in 710, but regardless the language does create some questions.
“This means that the prophesies of Isaiah 17 were not given to the prophet until 715 B.C., which is nearly two decades after the conquering of Damascus [in 732], so this helps us have assurance that Isaiah 17 wasn’t fulfilled in 732,” he continued.
Rosenberg said that it’s easy to overlook the verse referencing the king – one that seemingly provides context to Isaiah 17. The 732 B.C. prophesy, Rosenberg argues, gives Isaiah credibility, however what he promises in chapter 17 has yet to, in the Bible expert’s view, come to fruition.
“When he gives us end times prophesies, we can be assured that those will happen one day because the other things he had said had already come true,” Rosenberg told TheBlaze.
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I answered this question yesterday in a thread titled
“The Timing of Ezekiel 38 and 39.”-
The philological argument states that the primary meaning of אש ֹ֖ר) rosh)
is “head” as a noun, and “chief” as a noun serving as an adjective, and
further, that the word is unknown as a place name in the Bible.10
While the philological argument for Rosh as a noun-adjective or
common noun applies to most of its appearances in the Old Testament, the
word rarely appears after a “noun + of” (i.e., construct) form.11
The easiest
way to disprove a philological argument from silence is simply to break the
“silence,” and provide credible cases of Rosh appearing as a name, and in
fact a name to which our Ezekiel passage would likely refer. This will be
shown in detail in Chapter 2.
In fact, there are several philological reasons for understanding Rosh as
the proper name of a nation. First, it appears in various contexts in the
Septuagint (LXX). Here the proper name, Rosh ( in the LXX) appears
not in one, but in two different contexts. One might argue that might
reflect the Septuagint’s mistranslation of the Ezekiel passages, but when the
name appears in a list of other national names in Jeremiah 25:23-26, one
cannot assume the translators of the LXX simply misunderstood the grammar of Ezekiel, as claimed above, and “mistranslated” Rosh as a proper
national name. It is clear that the LXX knew of a nation called .
Moreover, the Hebrew Scriptures (Genesis 46:21) use Rosh as a proper
name—a son of Benjamin. Of course, the existence of a name of an
individual is hardly grounds for establishing the existence of a country by
the same name, but the Table of Nations in Genesis 10 lays out a complete
geography of the world on the basis of individuals who gave their name to
their descendants, i.e., “eponymous ancestors.” Interestingly, several of
these nations listed in Genesis 10—e.g., Gomer, Magog, Meshech, Tubal,
and Togarmah—are also listed in Ezekiel’s prophecy.
Most emphatically, we are not suggesting that Ezekiel’s Rosh is a
country named after the son of Benjamin, but one must note that the distinction between individual names and tribal and national names was much
narrower in the biblical culture than in our own. Hence, we could expect to
see the names of both persons and nations appearing together—as indeed,
we do today, for example, in such family names as Israel, Ireland, Scott,
Dane, Saxon, England, France, Frank, German, and Switzer, as well as in a
host of names identical with those of various geographical regions Even today in the Middle East we see the official names of nations
derived from the names of individuals, e.g., “The Hashemite Kingdom of
Jordan,” and “Saudi Arabia.” The point is that the Hebrew scripture does
allow us, in at least one other case, to see the word Rosh as a proper name.
Second, the failure to identify possible referents to Ezekiel’s Rosh
among place names in the Ancient Near East may in some small part result
from a failure to appreciate a phenomenon known as “phonetic shift” that
occurs in the Semitic languages. According to this fact, the Hebrew roš (š =
sh) is pronounced as ra’su in Arabic, rêš in Aramaic, riš (pronounced
/ra’šu/) in Ugaritic, and rēšu in Akkadian.12
Third, as will be discussed in Chapter 2, there are, in fact, many candidates for Ezekiel’s Rosh among most of the major Ancient Near Eastern
empires of the 1st and 2nd millennia BCE, as offered by advanced
topographical research during the 1980s and 1990s.13
However, the location
of any of the nations Ezekiel mentions will not be of much use until a larger
interpretive framework is spelled out. It is to that problem we now turn.
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Rosh: An Adjective or a Proper Noun?
A significant claim of this book rests upon whether or not שׁא ר) ֹ֖Rosh) is
an adjective or a proper name.2
In other words, should the text of Ezekiel
n – נְש ִׂ֕ יא ר אש ֶֶׁ֣מ ֶׁשְך ְוֻת ָ֑בל) 1:39 and 3, 2:38
e
śī’ rosh meshech ve
tubal) read: “the
chief prince of Meshech and Tubal . . .” (where “rosh” = a noun serving as
an adjective, “chief “)?3
Or should it read: “. . . the prince [of] Rosh,
Meshech and Tubal . . . .” (as a proper name)?
Two arguments seek to deny that (Rosh) is a proper (place) name: a
grammatical argument and a philological argument. Let us examine these
arguments. The grammatical argument against Rosh as the name of a place or
people loses its force when it suggests that one may, in fact, ignore the usual
“absolute state” of Rosh and translate it as a noun functioning as an
adjective, “chief,” rather than transliterate it as a name, Rosh. The issue here
may appear complicated–especially to those unfamiliar with Hebrew
grammar–but is worth pursuing. In Hebrew, nouns change to “construct form” to indicate a qualifying
relationship with what follows. For example, the word “house” is pronounced “bayit,” but “house of,” as in “house of Israel,” is “bēt.” Similarly,
the plural word, “days” is “yāmīm,” but “days of,” as in “days of King
Josiah,” is “y
emē.”
In our Ezekiel passage, the noun “prince” (n
e
śī’) appears in construct
form–a simple and understandable reading of which is “prince of.” Without
the unfamiliar Rosh as the next word, the translation would be obvious:
“prince of Meshech and Tubal.” But here the debate revolves around
whether or not the word that follows the construct form of n
e
śī’ is able, in
good grammar, to break up the “construct chain.” That is, can Rosh
unexpectedly become an adjective modifying “prince of,” to form “prince
chief (rosh) of Meshech and Tubal”? Or can it not break the construct chain,
leading to the translation: “prince of Rosh, Meshech, and Tubal”? In this
latter case, the construct n
e
śī’ is supported by the series of proper nouns,
Rosh, Meshech and Tubal, in accordance with normative biblical Hebrew
grammars.
The main argument against Rosh as a proper name was stated by J.
Simons who claimed that the absence of a conjunction between Rosh and
“Meshech” precludes Rosh from being a noun is based on the grammatical
rule of the Hebrew usage of polysyndeton—the usage of a number of
conjunctions in close succession (“x AND y AND z”). Thus, the reading ךְש ֶׁמֶֶׁ֣
(meshech) lacking an “and” (Hebrew: וּ” u,” ), rather than ךְש ֶׁמֶֶׁ֣וּ) u-meshech)
with the “and” () in both texts, he says, argues against a three-element list
of peoples or countries which would include Rosh as a country name.4
Simons’ objection in this case does not bear scrutiny, however, since
Gesenius notes exceptions to the polysyndeton rule.5
Far more serious for Simons’ objection is the fact that one exception
occurs in the immediate context, where Ezekiel himself ignores Simons’
“rule.” Just two verses after the passage being debated, Ezekiel lists three
nations, in which the list follows the same pattern as “Rosh [no AND]
Meshech AND Tubal,” above: “Paras, [no AND] Cush, AND Put” ( שׁוּ֥ ּכ ס ַ֛ רָּ פ
.(5:38ּ ו פ֖ ּוט
Moreover, in a similar list (27:13), Ezekiel again ignores Simons’
“.(יָּוָּ ָ֤ן תֻּ ב ל֙ וָּ מֶֶׁ֔ ׁשֶׁ ְך) Meshech AND Tubal], AND no [Greece: “rule polysyndeton
When related nations appear in a list in Isaiah 66:19, the same pattern
.(ת רְ ׁש ֙ יׁש פּ֥ ּול וְ לַ֛ ּוד) “Lud AND Pul], AND no [Tarshish: “occurs
Clearly, then, it is no real argument to say that Ezekiel’s Rosh must be
translated as “chief” because it lacks an “AND” (vav, ְֹ֖ו (that connects it, in a series with the nations Meshech and Tubal. In fact, the context demands,
against Simons, that the opposite be the case: that Rosh must be counted as a
nation in Ezekiel 38:2, 3 and 39:1. It is the interpretation of Rosh as an
adjective equivalent, “chief,” that leads to a serious deviation from normative Biblical Hebrew grammar.-
Troy Day all this analysis is not necessary to understand the text. Its simple Gog was the leader if the alliance of nations against Gods people simple. Those were nations who represent the enemies of God and they are in the table of nations which made up the world in Gen 10. Thus Gog is leader of the alliance of nations. This prophecy is fulfilled in Rev 19 and Repeate in Rev 20 just like Ezekiel repeats it in Ezek 38, and 39.. it shows Gog is the beast and his army the nations and theirs kings who are united with him. They are the magog ie those of his land who rule over. Thus the magog is the rest if the world who follow the beast apart from Gods true people.
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Martin Asare David Allen Stryker Zachary Uram Philip Williams Rob Burr
1. The Nations Involved: The Gog prophecy begins with God calling
Ezekiel to express an oracle against a specific list of nations which we have
already identified in the previous chapters: the northern nations, Gog of the
land of Magog, Rosh, Meshech, Tubal, Gomer, Togarmah—all from the
north—with other nations which perhaps represent the other three areas of
the earth: Persia (the area of Iran) in the east, Cush (northern, Muslim
Sudan) from the south, and Put (the area of Libya) from the west—all indicating a globally-based invasion. Still other nations, that seem to agree with
the invasion, or at least do not oppose it, are similarly located: Sheba
(Yemen), Dedan (area of Saudi Arabia), and Tarshish (far west) with all its
“merchants” (Heb. socha
rey Tarshish)—an “economic union”). All of these
will be driven by greed and envy (38:12,13; 39:10).
2. The Intended Victim: The People of the Lord in the Land of Israel:
The invaders’ target is the people of the Lord, Israel, who “had been brought
out from the nations,”—”even many nations,” who by war have recovered a
land that had long been empty and desolate. This desolation, now become
the “resettled ruins” (abandoned cities or villages), has been changed to
prosperity with the accumulation of “much cattle and goods,” by an Israel who now feels it is “living in safety,” “peaceful and unsuspecting, all of
them living without bars or gates.”
This “desolate” Land, which had formerly held no interest for anyone,
now becomes extremely vital to the invaders, much as the Temple Mount in
Jerusalem remained virtually unmentioned and unnoticed by Islam until taken by the Jews in 1967, when it was suddenly proclaimed to be “Islam’s
third-holiest shrine.” The invasion envisioned by Ezekiel, then, seems to be
driven by greed and envy—greed for a tiny sliver of land, long ignored, and
envy that its new inhabitants have caused it to bloom and prosper.
3. The Universal Onslaught against Israel: The text emphasizes the
overwhelming force of the universal worldwide invasion against this unsuspecting little nation.2 The fact that “all nations” will come against Israel is
specifically confirmed in Joel 3:2; Amos 9:9; Zechariah 14:2; Matthew 24:9;
and Luke 21:24. Gog comes, and “all [his] troops,” and “many nations”
with him from every direction, “a great horde, a mighty army . . . advancing
like a storm, like a cloud that covers the land,” all of them well equipped
militarily. The text does not describe the people of Israel defending them.
4. The Lord’s Actions against the Invaders: The crushing, apocalyptic
defense against the invaders is entirely the action of the Lord: “When Gog
attacks the Land of Israel, my hot anger will be aroused” (38:18b). God’s
anger will be expressed in a huge earthquake, after which He will “summon
a sword against Gog on all my mountains.” Perhaps it is the swords of the
invaders turned against each other (38:21), followed by “torrents of rain,
hailstones, and burning sulfur” pouring down upon the invaders. These responses were clearly beyond the capabilities of human agency—at least until
the recent development of apocalyptic weapons. In any case the Lord takes
charge of the battle and executes it Himself.
5. The “Sacrificial” Disposal of the Invaders: The largest portion of the
Gog prophecy—27 of the 52 verses in chapters 38-39—describes the terrible
defeat of the invaders. Their weapons are struck down (39:3); their corpses
feed the scavenger birds and animals (39:4); and their own homelands (and
perhaps those of others) are counter-attacked with fire (39:6). The natives of
Israel will spend seven months burying the huge number of dead, and will
then begin a program of cleansing the Land (39:12-16). Astonishingly, after
the burial of the invaders, the call goes out to scavenging birds and animals
for a huge “feast” of human sacrifices. Rather than being a section “out of
sequence” in the narrative, could this represent instead a hellish scene from
the afterlife? Could it be that the invaders (“millions of martyrs”)3 who offer their lives as a “sacrifice” for their cause, ironically and horribly, find themselves in exactly that destiny but in a totally unexpected setting?
6. The Lord’s Interpretation of the Action: Finally, a long concluding
passage makes clear the meaning of this cataclysmic defeat of all the nations
(“nations” can be translated “gentiles”) against Israel. First, all the nations
and Israel will take a lesson from the failure of the invasion: The defense of
Israel was an act of the Lord God of Israel (39:20-22). Second, the nations
will learn that Israel served as a prototype for the punishment of the nations.
God “hid His face from them” (39:24) for a season because of their unfaithfulness to the Lord. Now, as often prophesied, He hides his face from the
nations. Similarly, the Sovereign Lord says (36:22-23):
It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am going to do these things,
but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations
where you have gone. I will show the holiness of my great name, which has
been profaned among the nations, the name you have profaned among them.
Then the nations will know that I am the Lord,” declares the Sovereign Lord,
“when I show myself holy through you [italics mine] before their eyes.”
The point of this is that Israel contributes to the holiness of the Lord, not
because of its righteousness but in spite of its unrighteousness. Thus, the
very act of regathering the people of Israel “to their own Land” after their
exile among their enemies is another way of demonstrating the holiness of
the Lord to all the world (39:25-28; cf. Chaps. 36 and 37): He is keeping His
word regardless of what His people may choose.
Having completed this regathering, God will ratify his covenant with Israel by pouring out his Spirit upon them (39:29). Here the prophecy refuses
to vindicate the “righteousness” of the people of Israel. On the other hand
the prophecy refuses to allow anyone to deny Israel’s right to existence and
its right to the Land God promised them.
The crucial point is this: since the people of Israel, as God’s “light to the
nations,” represent the revelation and the holiness of the Lord on the earth,
they are attacked by all the powers of Darkness through its human and other
instruments, the nations-without-God; however, at the same time, the God of
Israel defends His people by His overwhelming power.
Just as satanic rituals seek to deface and destroy the image of God in
human beings—by sexual perversions, mutilations, and human sacrifice—so
this invasion of the nations includes this, but represents a further step. Now,
the forces of evil move beyond simple mass murder-suicide/human sacrifices4
to an all-out attack of “all nations” against the symbol and expression of
God’s revelation to the world—Israel, His “light to the nations,” and Jesus, “the Light of the world”—hoping to extinguish that light “as a cloud covering the land.”
In a profound irony, the nations’ compulsive need for human sacrifice
on a horrific scale results not in their hoped-for sensual feasting in Paradise,
but in their being feasted upon as the sacrificial last supper for the scavengers of Hell.
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