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SALVATION delivers from the Tribulation by means of the Rapture

3 years ago • July 8, 2023 • by ourCOG

2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
The salvation here is deliverance from the Tribulation by means of the Rapture, as seen elsewhere in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.
The expression did not receive the love of the truth is an unusual one not found elsewhere in this exact form. Receiving the love of the truth is the same as believing in Jesus for eternal life. John 6:47 will be true then as well as now. Verse 12 makes this point explicitly, namely, that receiving the love of the truth equals believing the truth.

Verse 12 does not mean that everyone alive at the time of the Rapture who are unbelievers will be duped. Evidently when the Rapture occurs the Man of Sin will emerge and will give some explanation for the disappearance of the believers. With this lie will surely come his claim to be God and to offer deliverance for all who follow him. Many will be deluded by his message.

It is not known what the strong delusion will be. But it is known that only unbelievers who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness will be deceived. This does not mean that all of the unsaved when the Rapture occurs will be eternally condemned. Rev 7:4-17 states that there will be 144,000 Jewish evangelists and that they will lead Jews and Gentiles all over the earth to faith in Christ during the Tribulation.

Those who had pleasure in unrighteousness are people who heard and yet rejected the gospel in this age. Those in tribes and people groups who have not heard the gospel will not be subject to this delusion. Likely even some in countries like the United States, where the gospel is accessible to all, will not have heard the clear gospel, or have not heard it enough, and so some of them will come to faith in Christ in the Tribulation.

Surely, however, a large percentage of people in Christian lands will be deluded when the Rapture occurs and will be hardened in unbelief. Most of the converts of the 144,000 will no doubt be in third-world countries and unreached areas of the world (Matt 24:14).

Unbelievers should not be complacent in their unbelief. They should cry out to God to show them the truth. Their fear of the Tribulation should motivate them to ask God to reveal the truth of the gospel to them.

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Discussion

68 comments

  1. Troy Day says:
    October 10, 2020 at 8:18 am

    YES I do believe that Neil Steven Lawrence OUR salvation will come alone with the Rapture Saved at last saved at last Thank GOD we are saved at last

    Reply
  2. Martin Asare says:
    October 10, 2020 at 12:00 pm

    But when does it deliver them according to The text? Does it not say when he comes with the angels in flaming fire is that day? Is this not the 2nd coming as many texts such as Matt 16:27, Matt 24:31-33 says? Notice they were delivered in this day from suffering tribulation not before tribulation

    Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:23 pm

      Christ in Rev 3:10 says it plainly for anyone to understand

      Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you FROM the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

      We are saved from the WHOLE hour – not just part(s) of it

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 7:37 am

      Troy Day
      1. where the faithful church of Smyrna kept from the tribulation of 10days in which antipas was killed? Rev 2:9-10

      2. Were the apostles kept from tribulation in which all of them except John died cruel deaths at the hand of Rome. ? How about the sufferings of the early church recorded in the epistles? How about the killing of many Christians and the various way they suffer today from evil. Governments and groups like ISIS? Are they not a part of the church?

      3. Are u suggesting they suffer because they are unfaithful?

      4. How do u reconcile this promise with Rev 12:10-11 in which saints overcome by being faithful until death and to the witness?

      5. . How about Rom 8: 17 and 2 Tim 2:12, Acts 4:22, which say when we suffer with him we will reign with Him?

      6. How about Christ telling his disciples the period of his absence until he comes will be a period of sorrow and suffering as a woman in travail? For they will suffer like him and at his return will have everlasting joy. John 15:18-25, 16:18-33

      7. . So why did Jesus in Matt 24 say to his disciples whoever will persevere to the end will be saved? What is the end ? Is it not his 2nd coming to bring the kingdom and reward? And persevere through what ? And what is the tribulation which will be made short because of them? Then why are his elect gathered from all over the world and not Isreal Alone if the tribulation is only for Israel?

      8. Then how about in Rev 7:9-17 which shows the entire church is described as those saved from the great tribulation.

      So who is right in these things ? You or christ? Will he contradicts himself?No!!! This shows
      Rev 3:10 is not promising protection from facing . tribulatuon, it is promising persevering grace which enable faithful disciples to be protected from the apostasizing effect of tribulation which causes those who are not real disciples to fall away Luke 8:13.
      Thus they are kept from the trial in its power to cause them to forsake christ. This ensures their preservation and perseverance to be saved at the end. ( Isa 43:1-3).
      Its like the Hebrew Boys thrown into the fire but not burned and hurt by it. Hence they are saved from its deadly effects.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 8:26 am

      Martin Asare those are easy Let me tend to my students and I will be happy to answer BTW you are OFF topic which is 2 Thessalonians 2:9-12 Think of some harder questions to add on that passage meanwhile Thanks

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 8:57 am

      Troy Day u cant answer them . Smyrna was faithful as Philadelphia yet were not spared tribulation. And if u want to be press it, those of the church in Philadelphia in those days were to experience this tribulation which will try the whole earth. So how does it extend to our day and beyond? The 2 witnesses killed by the beast are the church. They are rest of the children of thr woman who hold to the witness of christ Rev 12:17. Hence the beast wages war and overcomes them and kills them for 42 months when he rises from from the abyss to power comp Rev 11:7-8,11, to Rev 13:7-11,15,20:4, and Dan 7:21-27. U will see the saints of Daniel 7 are the children of the woman whom the beast wages war and overcomes for times, time, half aka the 3.5days

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 12:38 pm

      Martin Asare Very sorry to disappoint you but these are Sunday school level discussions that are common on some beginners preterist forums and post-trib groups. I will be happy to answer them with an ease though such basic logic is simply waste of time. I would like to invite you to take eschatology more seriously, perhaps even learn some Greek to get oriented as most of your so called proofs are nothing more than grammatical gymnastics with the English language that simply do not translate in other languages For example:

      1. where the faithful church of Smyrna kept from the tribulation of 10days in which antipas was killed? Rev 2:9-10

      ANSWER: Smyrna goes through e PERSECUTION Gr. θλῖψιν while Rev 3:10 promises escape from the Great Tribulation presented by Jesus in the Revelation as the final TRIAL πειρασμοῦ of the Creation

      2. and 3. Were the apostles kept from tribulation in which all of them except John died cruel deaths at the hand of Rome. ? How about the sufferings of the early church recorded in the epistles? How about the killing of many Christians and the various way they suffer today from evil. Governments and groups like ISIS? Are they not a part of the church?

      ANSWER: This is very simplistic thinking indeed. And how about the Christians in China, India, Indonesia, Middle East – are they in the Great Tribulation right now and we are not. No, of course the Church has been persecuted in every age but this is NOT YET the GREAT Tribulation as Jesus calls it. Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

      NOTE WELL the phrase here has not been since the beginning of the world OR some translate more literally since the fall of the worlds referring to the early Creation and Lucifer’s fall. All the ones you have listed are persecution we have seen already, but Jesus said THEN-after those there will be great tribulation, such as has not been SO who shall we believe you and or Jesus? I chose Jesus every time…

      Reply
  3. Alfonso Velasco says:
    October 10, 2020 at 1:19 pm

    The one most critical problem we have in the whole world is none other than our sins … THE ONLY SOLUTION:

    ROMANS ROAD OF SCRIPTURE

    I. Romans 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.
    II. Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
    III. Romans 5:8 But God commends his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
    IV. Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.
    V. Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
    VI. Romans 10:9-11 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, whosoever believes on him shall not be ashamed.
    VII. Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
    THE CONSEQUENCES:
    Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (OR)
    1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son (JESUS). He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe (Trust) on the name of the Son of God; that ye may KNOW that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God,
    GOD truly loves you and me … PLEASE just leave all of your sin and problems at the foot of the Cross of JESUS CHRIST … He is the only real HOPE we have.

    SUGGESTED PRAYER: “Oh God, I know I am a sinner. I believe Jesus was my substitute when He died on the Cross. I believe His shed blood, death, burial and resurrection were for me. I now receive Him as my Savior. I thank You Lord for the forgiveness of my sins, the gift of Salvation and everlasting Life, because of Your merciful Grace. Amen.

    Reply
  4. Rob Burr says:
    October 11, 2020 at 2:19 am

    The rapture delivers OUT OF tribulation, because the tribulation comes first.
    It requires a scriptural contortionist to arrive at the reverse interpretation.

    Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:23 pm

      Rev 3:10 says exactly the opposite

      Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you FROM the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

      we are saved from the WHOLE hour – not just part(s) of it And what deliverance is that which leaves you in the Tribulation to begin with? HINT: None at all Even Philip Williams may attest t that

      Reply
    • Philip Williams says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:25 pm

      Troy Day the church will be shining in the world as the tares are being burned in the tribulation on the great and terrible Day of the Lord. We have that promise from Jesus himself.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:26 pm

      Philip Williams naah NO such BIBLE to back this in any way God is not pleased with his BRIDE being persecuted by the devil He took Noah out of the flood as He will the Church of the Tribulation – plain and simple Lesson from Noah

      Reply
    • Philip Williams says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:32 pm

      Troy Day now, now, now!

      Noah went through the Flood that killed everyone else. But he was obedient. I can attest that he built a very fine boat.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:37 pm

      Philip Williams We need not be ignorant concerning this subject because it is fully and clearly revealed in many passages of the New Testament. The fact and manner of the rapture are clearly revealed in the following Scriptures: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man” (Luke 21:34-36), “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also” (John 14:1-3), “But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming…. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, . . . In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed…. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality . . . So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory . . . O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye steadfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord” (1 Cor. 15:23, 51-58),, “That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish” (Eph. 5:27), “For our conversation is in heaven- from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself” (Phil. 3:20, 21), “But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent [precede] them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord” (1 Thess. 4:13-17), “Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him…. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (2 Thess. 2:1, 7, 8). See the other passages on the rapture (2 Cor. 5:1-8; Phil. 3:11; 1 Thess. 2:19; 3:13; 5:9, 23; Col. 3:4; James 5:7, 8; 1 John 2:28; 3:2; 1 Pet. 5:4). Not one of the above passages refers to the second advent.

      Reply
    • Philip Williams says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:42 pm

      “My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.”
      ‭‭John‬ ‭17:15‬ ‭

      Reply
    • Rob Burr says:
      October 11, 2020 at 2:49 pm

      Troy Day the church of Philadelphia is the penultimate church age and the ‘hour of trial’ the final period leading up to the Day of Wrath.
      That period is the era of the church of Laodicea, an apostate time full of war and turmoil easily identified by historicists.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 4:42 pm

      Rob Burr for the most of it you type in tongues which even Philip Williams cant interpret You point on church being dispensation is NOT well taken I do not believe in dispensations like you do “That period is the era ” is definitions that are not found in the BIBLE as even in the Book of Revelation the Holy Spirit is seen working as He was in Genesis NO historicists have in any way defined the Great Tribulation of which Jesus himself said Matthew 24:21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.

      FOR THEN THERE WILL BE in Mt 24 refers to the THEN TIME after the Church is raptured and Israel is under the Tribulation As you yourself from the BIBLE Jesus was pretty explicit about all this chronological order

      Reply
    • Rob Burr says:
      October 11, 2020 at 6:21 pm

      Troy Day if you don’t think it applies to a particular age that’s OK.
      There was no need to waffle away like you have.
      The point is the ‘hour of trial’ is a relatively short time in prophecy and the description not definitive enough to be called Israel’s tribulation, or great tribulation.
      There are / were times of absolute horror within ‘great tribulation’ and that includes the Jewish Holocaust which lasted about 3.5 days. This, according to the day-year rule so despised by James C. Morris.

      Reply
    • Rob Burr says:
      October 11, 2020 at 6:28 pm

      Troy Day it’s comforting to know I type in tongues, because the truth of prophecy is that it is a giant parable which not all can interpret.

      Reply
    • Kevin Gull says:
      October 12, 2020 at 12:49 am

      Rob Burr you re joking, right?

      Reply
    • Rob Burr says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:02 am

      Kevin Gull Troy Day’s comment, not mine.

      Reply
  5. David Allen Stryker says:
    October 11, 2020 at 10:51 am

    Millions and millions of Christians have already been martyed for Christ.
    No great escape from the mark of the beast.

    Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:20 pm

      I am sorry my dear brother, but I am not of the habit of posting on social media while in church. Especially when I am preaching in the pulpit and ministering in the altar. I will be happy to address your concern if it is theologically presented on another day when we are not ALL in church as well as we should be. At the same time, you’d understand the general skepticism of discussing theology with people who are not ministers and have not proper received theological training. Like my mechanic tells me when I do my best to work on my new truck, let the professionals handle it before you break something important.

      As to the millions and millions of Christians have already been martyred for Christ, none of them so far have been forced to receive any mark of the Biblical beast. As Christ says himself it will be a great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world and never will be again Therefore, Rev 3 10 Christ Himself promises to also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

      Reply
    • David Allen Stryker says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:28 pm

      Troy Day
      They are kept from the trial because they’re all dead.
      We are now living in the 7th final church age

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:30 pm

      David Allen Stryker The person who conceived your parallel theological paradigm of “Pre-Wrath” view of the Rapture was a man named Robert Van Kampen (1938-1999). Van Kampen became one of America’s richest men through his involvement in investment banking. During his lifetime he accumulated one of the largest private collections of rare and antique Bibles in North America. In the 1970’s Van Kampen began developing the “Pre- Wrath” concept of the timing of the Rapture. Once he had completed his work on the concept, he started trying to find a well known person in the field of Bible prophecy to endorse his new view. That person finally turned out to be Marvin Rosenthal

      I object to the 3/4 Trib Rapture because it violates the chronology of the book of Revelation. The sequence of events that is pictured in the book of Revelation clearly places both the Seal Judgments and the Trumpet Judgments in the first half of the 70th Week of Daniel. And the Bowl Judgments are clearly contained within Daniel’s 70th Week, near its end. The 3/4 Trib view scrambles all this. The Seal Judgments are continued over into the second half of the 7 year period, the Trumpet Judgments are moved from the first half to the end of the second half

      Reply
    • David Allen Stryker says:
      October 11, 2020 at 12:32 pm

      Troy Day
      Daniel 9 has nothing to do with end times prophecy

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 11, 2020 at 4:38 pm

      David Allen Stryker Daniel 9 has everything to do with end times prophecy

      Reply
    • Rob Burr says:
      October 12, 2020 at 6:05 am

      Troy Day pride comes with a fall and your comments are full of it.
      The Holy Spirit is the Councellor and He operates outside of seminaries with more freedom than inside much of the time.
      Your opinion is worth nothing if you don’t understand that millions have been subject to the Antichrist during the Church Age and millions have escaped the clutches over 1,300 years.
      ‘Come out of her my people’.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 6:22 am

      Rob Burr the feeling when you wake up one morning … left behind It will be a very sad feeling

      Reply
  6. Troy Day says:
    October 12, 2020 at 5:39 am

    Craig O’Dell Eric Bakarian GOD’s simple plan for salvation finishes with an predestined end of the world. You are predestined to be either raptured or to be left behind The choice is YOURS How hard is this to understand? Neil Steven Lawrence

    Reply
    • Neil Steven Lawrence says:
      October 12, 2020 at 9:55 am

      Troy Day it seems God‘s plan has involves saving people through different levels of grace in the different historical time periods. gods predestination of mankind can never be understood outside of his for knowledge.

      Believers are predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ.

      Unbelievers are not predestined to be condemned to hell.

      Predestination does not apply to damnation. God does not plan
      negative results he plans positive results. The fact that some refuse to conform to his plans brings them outside of God’s predestination.

      People like Calvinist who say God plans people to go to hell make Yahweh out to be fatalistic. One of the key differences between Yahweh and the other gods of the nations was that he was not fatalistic like them.

      This is what’s wrong with Calvinism; in their attempt to protect God‘s sovereignty they turn him into a pagan fatalistic God.

      In the Calvinist construct Yahweh becomes more like Allah – the ultimate fatalistic God.

      Reply
    • Craig O'Dell says:
      October 13, 2020 at 1:39 am

      Really? Most Christians die and will be resurrected; you can find that in scripture. There are no scriptures that support the view you are predestined to be raptured. This is theology you add to the biblical narrative.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 13, 2020 at 3:31 am

      Craig O’Dell Neil Steven Lawrence in ALL actuality there is PLENTY of BIBLE presented in this very posts and many others proving the Biblical rapture All the poster needs to do is read and consider them As simple as that We could re-post them of course but basic BIBLE knowledge is still needed for their understanding When such is lacking all efforts are in vain READ the BIBLE and stay rapture ready

      Reply
  7. Troy Day says:
    October 12, 2020 at 12:48 pm

    Martin Asare 4. How do u reconcile this promise with Rev 12:10-11 in which saints overcome by being faithful until death and to the witness?

    Refers to ISRAEL during the Tribulation – already explained this many times. We know this from the annunciation of the kingdom of our God, and the ἐξουσία power of His Messiah : : )

    You are not suggesting anyone could save themselves by their works or death are you? BOY, Eric Bakarian and half of the calvinistic world would have a hey day with your legalistic interpretation of this verse

    WHO are the σκηνοῦντες inhabitants of heaven in the following verse living there in the way σκηνοῦντες – skin tabernacles 🙂 Certainly not angelic beings, but the Church with bodies translated in a twinkle of an eye Come on now, I have students who can read this with their beginners Greek and see it Surely you are much more than them now !

    Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:01 pm

      Troy Day brother the text is clear, it says the witneses of Christ . They are Christians.. there is nothing like Jewish Christians or Gentile Christians. Nope they all are one people of God and church. Whether Jewish or gentile it indicates the church is suffering. You may not have your head chopped off today but your brother whi us in Pakistan or Nigeria being killed indicates the church is still suffering. U cant separate the members of the church they are one body!!! Some if the church is in heaven today yet u dont say the church is in heaven do u? But the truth is it is both in heaven and on earth. And it is one church not a divided church. Only those who persevere will be saved in the end. Its not preaching salvation by good works. It is preaching salvation by faith which has good works seen in perseverance. Without perseverance there is no true faith. The entire Bible teaches this. That is why Jesus said the one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back will not be worthy of the kingdom. So yes Jesus was teaching final salvation dependant on perseverance. This is why eternal life is promise to only those who overcome in Rev 2-3.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:04 pm

      Martin Asare which text are you referring to ?

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:36 pm

      Troy Day Rev 12:10-11

      Reply
    • Eric Bakarian says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:40 pm

      Troy Day lol I keep being referenced. It’s funny

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:46 pm

      Martin Asare Refers to ISRAEL during the Tribulation It is interpreted So because of the way the annunciation of the kingdom of our God, and the ἐξουσία power of His Messiah is made referring to the promise of ISRAEL for a Messiah who would usurp ἐξουσία MOST of the OT prophecies you quote refer exactly to that Eric Bakarian pls tell me you at least believe in salvation through faith alone And NO the text never says text witnesses of Chris IT says

      They triumphed over him
      by the blood of the Lamb
      and by the word of their testimony;
      they did not love their lives so much
      as to shrink from death.

      These overcomers are not those of the Church,
      for they have all been raptured, but are those of the Jews saved since the rapture of the Church in Rev. 4:1.

      Reply
    • Eric Bakarian says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:52 pm

      Troy Day salvation is only through faith in Christ alone.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:54 pm

      Eric Bakarian DOES Rev 12:10-11 disqualify Christians then?

      Reply
    • Eric Bakarian says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:58 pm

      Not at all why would it?

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:59 pm

      Troy Day if u are associated with the blood of the lamb and are his witness what does that make you? Can u overcome by the death of christ and not be a Christian?

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:01 pm

      Troy Day the text never says anything about Israel, u have to import that idea in there.They are described in Christian terms, ie those associated with the blood of the lamb and the witness. Nothing said about jew or gentile. And beside this us speaking of the effect of christ’s death and ascension bringing about victory for God’s People. Thus those being described are all Christians throughout every age who suffer for christ.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:02 pm

      Martin Asare ISRAEL will also be saved by Grace and the blood They are not saved with works either BUT the difference is they come from the Tribulation while the church comes up before it It is kind of simple if you ask me

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:03 pm

      Troy Day all the promises of the church are to Christians and they say those who overcome will receive eternal life. None of those promises are about rewards. Nope they are about salvation itself

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:09 pm

      Martin Asare Sure, but this does NOT in any disprove what I just said It actually proves it quite well

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:14 pm

      Troy Day brother the text doesn’t say who it is. So u have to say its simply Christians. You can’t divide Jewish Christians from gentiles they all are one body. And fact is this is the power of the blood enabling perseverance and faithfulness even onto death and to witness in Christians throughout the age not only in the period under the beast. Thid is later on in the text applied to the rest of the children of the woman in Rev 12:17 who satan through the beast wages war and overcomes and kills Rev 13:1-8, 11-15, 14:12-13, 20:4. These dying for the witness are have their souls glorified with eternal life in heaven as priests. This shows They die as blessed one in the lord Jesus who enter into rest. ( Rev 2:9-1], 14:12-13). This blessedness is seen in their souls given eternal life to reign with christ in heaven Rev 20:4-6. They also are the same 2 witnesses who die in the 3.5 days of the beast . This like Rev 13:7-8, Rev 11:7 says the beast wages war and overcomes them and kills them. This is the fulfilment of Dan 7:21-27. This the saints are represented as the 2 witnesses and they are the rest of the children of the woman described as Christians. Rev 12:17, 13:1-8. Again nothing is said about their ethnic identity, they are simply Christians and the brethren of christ. GODS REMNANT .. This shows true Christians are of Isreal for they are the seed of the woman with christ. The woman is their mother and corporate identity. She is the woman of Gen 3:15, Jeruslaem above, Sarah the mother of nations. From her , the seed comes. She is Israel the light of the world. And this she is God’s faithful messenger who brings his heavenly light to the world . She is the church .

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:19 pm

      Troy Day point is u cant tell me that those christ speaks to are jews . They are simply his disceples of all ages. And especially those who live in the time before the end which is his coming. They are to persevere to the end in faith to be saved. Thry are from all over the world hence they are gathered to him from the world at his coming bathe great trumpet and this is the rapture.

      Reply
  8. Troy Day says:
    October 12, 2020 at 12:52 pm

    Martin Asare
    5. . How about Rom 8: 17 and 2 Tim 2:12, Acts 4:22, which say when we suffer with him we will reign with Him?

    6. How about Christ telling his disciples the period of his absence until he comes will be a period of sorrow and suffering as a woman in travail? For they will suffer like him and at his return will have everlasting joy. John 15:18-25, 16:18-33
    HOW about it? Same as 1 and 2
    θλῖψιν vs MEGALOS (Great) θλῖψιν – you are comparing apples and oranges or in this particular case apples and pineapples Similar not same wording, but different fruit, meaning, designation Reminds me of the ol feller from back in the day who was telling me Jesus was a Jew because you couldn’t spell Jesus without Je – all true of course

    7. . So why did Jesus in Matt 24 say to his disciples – his disciples were all JEW at the moment of this word being spoken. You need to consider WHO was Jesus speaking to with these words and not make global assumptions which are simply NOT in the text but just your personal private interpretation. As above just try to spell Jesus without Je : )

    Neil Steven Lawrence James C. Morris know what I am talking about (hopefully)

    Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:35 pm

      Troy Day you think u know cuz u put Greek in it? Not impressed words alone dont determine meaning of a text. John 15, 16 are not about only the early disciples for obviously the will not be alive at the 2nd coming ,nor live throughout the ascension and the 2nd coming
      So to not see he was talking to ALL Christians saved in the period shows your own lack of understanding. Study the concept of a woman in travail and every where it means tribulation where one is hoping to be delivered from it. Hence Jesus was saying the entire interadvent period will a period of tribulation. And his coming is what will bring everlasting joy and relief to them . This is exactly what Paul teaches in 2 Thess 1:5-10

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 4:01 pm

      Martin Asare Now you are attacking me because you are OUT of ammo. If you believe the multitudes from Rev 5 and Rev 7 are the Church you admit the church is in heaven before the rapture @ Rev 5 – just read for yourself BTW I explained in great detail how Paul speaks of pre-trib rapture in 1 and 2 Thes Pls go read it again Thanks Peace out

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 4:41 pm

      Troy Day nope they are not in Heaven. The song of the 24 elders declare what christ has done. It says He has purchased them from every tribe etc. However, we see them in heaven only after they have gone through the tribulation and have been gathered together at the 2nd coming.. Rev 7. … I’m not attacking just pointing out to u explaining Greek words doesn’t interpret texts. Context is what does. Lest u think u are right just cuz u are writing Greek.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 7:46 pm

      Martin Asare You may be actually correct on this one I am showing you the Greek in hope to explain, but you are not too familiar even with the English text of revelation The 24 elders are there in HEAVEN right after the rapture Rev 4

      1. Rev. 1-3 deals primarily with the Church on earth.

      2. Rev. 4-5 pictures the Church and the Old Testament saints with God in heaven after the rapture, represented by the twenty-
      four elders.

      The Heavenly Tabernacle: the raptured saints with God (4:1-5:14).

      (1) The Heavenly Door (4:1) opens and shows

      (2) The Heavenly Throne (4:2,3,5) where we see

      (3) The 24 elders representing the church (4:4) Surrounding the throne were twenty-four other thrones, and seated on them were twenty-four elders. They were dressed in white and had crowns of gold on their heads.

      ONLY THEN after the church and the elders are in heaven you have Tribulation which does not begin till about ch. 6-7 while Rev. 6-19 deals primarily with Israel under the last oppression by the Gentiles in fulfillment to the prophecy of Daniel’s
      Seventieth Week after the rapture of the Church

      PLS read Revelation literally This is not your beginners Sunday School level after all

      Reply
  9. Troy Day says:
    October 12, 2020 at 1:03 pm

    FINALLY Martin Asare
    8. Then how about in Rev 7:9-17 which shows the entire church is described as those saved from the great tribulation.

    Again HOW about it? Rev 7:9-17 which shows the entire church – It Actually shows NO such thing The “great multitude” of Rev. 7:9-17; 15:2-4 and the 144,000 of Rev. 7:1-8; 14:1-5 are the only companies of redeemed seen on earth during the whole of Rev. 6-19. It is clear that they are not the Church, and, since the Church is not seen except as represented by the elders in heaven, it is sure to be raptured before the fulfillment of these chapters.

    Rev 3:10 is not promising protection from facing tribulation, it is promising going through the GREAT Tribulation

    And BTW The 2 witnesses killed by the beast are the church is the most heretical statement I’ve heard all week and it is inly Monday. Revelation is strictly explicit the 2 witness are JEWS. We go back to you cant spell Jesus without a Je which just about sums up the logic in the 2 witnesses being the church and such

    Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 1:06 pm

      Troy Day u are funny. Tell me the difference in description of Rev 5:8-10, and Rev 7:9, why are they the same people from every tribe, tongue , nation and people? On what basis are those in Rev 5:8-10 different. Meanwhile Rev 1:6 says Christians are a kingdom of priests and kings so what is the difference in them?

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:11 pm

      Martin Asare That may be So but I very well debunked your 8 “proofs” from the sunday school forum and now have another class to teach I can tell you the difference and the likeness of course but to what extent? So far the thesis you propose has shown to be quite far from the BIBLE and cherry picking verses is not really my thing Pls let me know when you have some serious theology about what I already wrote and let’s stick to the topic Genesis verses are welcomed too 🙂 BTW the ones in Rev 7 are just now getting into heaven and the ones in Rev 5 are already there since the rapture took place in Rev 4 – plain and simple for anyone

      Reply
    • Martin Asare says:
      October 12, 2020 at 2:16 pm

      Troy Day u haven’t debunked anything. All u did is say its Isreal but the text doesn’t say that, it simply says they are Christians. And u are wrong in Rev 7 saints not being the same as Rev 5:8-10and this they are the church and sons of Abraham and Isreal being the innumerable people like the sand of the sea.

      Reply
    • Troy Day says:
      October 13, 2020 at 3:32 am

      Martin Asare oh yes we did And very nicely so To the point that you are currently without any ammo 🙂 And somewhat confused as it seems IF you indeed claim Rev 7 saints are the same as Rev 5:8-10 you admit they were raptured in Rev 4 before the Tribulation – I rest my case

      Reply
  10. Allan Cowie says:
    October 12, 2020 at 2:20 pm

    If you simply read the Bible for yourself you’d never come up with pre-trib. Its got to be seeded by man as an idea, not too unlike the enemy seeded tares in the wheat concept Jesus taught of.
    Bibles with mans commentary added have a lot to answer for, in particular scofields.
    After going cover to cover through the Bible (without mans polluting commentary) several times over a number of years I had to conclude pre-trib is just not there, at best it has to be very ropely inferred and you’ve Olympic level scriptural gymnastics to apply and no small dose of plain logic butchery needed to get there.
    This view does have a very significant appeal to suffering averse human nature though, i think that factor plays a real part in all this. I call it the “immature Peter factor” (see Mathew 16:22-23). Jesus straightened him out in the end but it took a pretty heavy duty public rebuke to put a dent in his deeply entrenched suffering averse mindset and even Satan himself was in on it.
    The recently released film ‘7 pretrib problems’ exposes it for what it really is in my opinion, its just untenable, although pre-wrath view itself raises many serious questions but nothing on the scale of pre-trib.
    https://youtu.be/xwXoMNpOhos

    Reply
  11. Troy Day says:
    October 13, 2020 at 3:35 am

    Martin Asare just to sum up this nice discussion, you have not presented ANY new evidence whatsoever after we debunked your 8 sunday school forum arguments Craig O’Dell in comparison has not presented even 1 – not 8 or 5 or 3 In addition there seems to be a general confusion in the counter arguments from the pre-trib opposers IF you indeed claim Rev 7 saints are the same as Rev 5:8-10 you admit they were raptured in Rev 4 before the Tribulation – I rest my case and Neil Steven Lawrence can attest to that

    Reply
  12. Troy Day says:
    October 13, 2020 at 4:00 am

    Eric Bakarian because this is after all end time soteriological discussion lets explore for a moment your OFF topic suggestion Pls count in just the first 3 chapters of Rev how many times the synergism formula is being used – because you .. I will DOES this sound in any way like a GOD who has not or is not giving a choice? Each church is then URGED to complete a correction in order to participate in the last days soteriological synergism between GOD and his Creation

    There is a wonderful transdisciplinary synergistic-generative approach, about the faithfulness status of the seven churches presented in the first chapters of the Book of Revelation Each church is promised that everyone who conquers will be rewarded by Christ. The fourth church for example was required to repent of its sin, but it was a free-will choice explained with IF YOU DO NOT.. I WILL

    The contextual synergistic message model here puts together the three transdisciplinary integrative and integrated spheres, Pathos for Sender, Ethos for Receiver and Logos for Synergistic Contextual Message. The Sender is working in the context of the authoritative-expressive principle with its specific rules: responsibility, credibility and deference; the Receiver is belonging to the behavioral communication sphere, Ethos, according to the participative-conative principle with its specific rules: receptivity, availability, and implication. The Synergistic Contextual Message represents the synergistic-generative interface between Sender and Receiver.

    Reply

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