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For those who support the idea of soul sleep upon physical death…How do you reconcile the biblical consistency of verses that represent the departed as conscious?(Luke 16:22; 23:43; Phil. 1:23; 2 Cor. 5:8; Rev. 6:9-11; 14:13)
Discussion
7 comments
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Following.
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I like this verse. People are spirit. The Apostle Peter explained that “Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is eight souls were saved by water.” (I Pet.3:18-20). Obviously, since those disobedient spirits were from the days of Noah, Jesus preached to the dead. Here is a clear inference that death is NOT the end of the story! I can’t leave this passage without commenting on the fact that Jesus went to hell to preach to those languishing there, showing us that there is nowhere too far removed for God to go after his wayward children. If we make our bed in hell, the Psalmist declares, we will find Him there. (Ps. 139:8). The word hell, in most instances in the New Testament should be translated “Hades,” meaning only the resting place of the dead, not the everlasting flames of torment that the church says it means.
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Warning extremely simplified version….
Luke 16 is a parable/folk tale intended to give a moral message and not an actual story, just as the parables proceeding.
Luke 23…a few answers are offered, but many see it as a statement made by Jesus of assurity, and I believe it might better be translated as “Truly, I say to you, now you will be with me in paradise”. Some believe the coma is misplaced and it should read “Truly, I say to you today, you will be..”, and a few others…(it’s important to note that paradise isn’t restored until after Jesus returns, and that being dead in a tomb as Jesus was hardly seems paradise like.)
Phil 1…I think we often wish to be with Christ now, but we aren’t, and must know that remaining here is more needful.
2 Cor 5:8 doesn’t say what most assume it does, and is often misquoted. If I were to say “I’d rather be absent from my home and present at Disneyland.” Would you assume I believed that the moment I left my home I would be in Disneyland? Of course not.
Rev 6… saints are in the ground under the altar and told to rest until…no issues for Soul Sleep there that I see but rather a strength for it. Compare it to Ables innocent blood crying from the ground in Gen.
Revelation 14…I suppose I don’t see why we would need an answer for that one.
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Always wondered about that!! Comforting to hear!
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there is no resolution
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I’m not 100% on soul-sleep, but I think we’re likely to sleep more than we’re awake. Let me answer in two parts, then.
The first part is to observe that none of those verses teach a general ongoing fact; they all purport to speak of one person, or one instant.
Luke 16:22 – one rich man, plus the undivided attention of Abraham. No claim of ongoing consciousness.
Luke 23:43 – one thief, and we know Jesus was bound in hades thereafter and until His resurrection. Probably a claim about pleasant consciousness, but given Acts 2 cannot be ongoing consciousness (otherwise “the pangs of death” would be a baffling contradiction!).
Phil. 1:23 – Paul personally, and no claim about consciousness at all.
2 Cor. 5:8 – no claim about consciousness, only location. Although there’s a _hint_ of some consciousness in that chapter.
Rev. 6:9-11 – a vision in which people wake up, demand justice, and are told to rest (does this mean go to sleep?)
Rev. 14:13 – rest. Does not mean “stay awake.”Compare those 2 verses in Revelation, in which people are told to rest, versus the activity in heaven worshiping God, particularly Revelation 4:8 — “day and night they do not rest, saying…” The activity of those who are designed to worship God will be similar to ours in the final state — we will not rest because we will not need rest. But until then, we _rest_.
Now, my second part is to adduce evidence.
Let me clarify that I am NOT going to claim that “those who have fallen asleep” means soul sleep. It _certainly_ does not mean that; rather, the metaphor is intended to communicate that it’s like sleep because they will awake from it.
The first claim is that Biblically, our hope rests in the resurrection. The idea that we’re safely and happily kept between death and the resurrection is not foreign to the Bible, but neither is it ever emphasized, and it’s barely mentioned at all (the passages you cite are almost the only ones to mention).
Paul, in 1 Cor 15, says that if Christ couldn’t be raised from the dead, then those who fell asleep in Christ “have perished already” — meaning, surely, that they would be dead never to be awakened. That’s the difference between sleeping and being dead — one you can be wakened from. Again, I don’t mean to imply too much of a similarity just in the word “asleep” — but the question is why Paul sees that as _bad_ if they’re actually awake and enjoying heaven. It seems that Paul thinks they’re normally unconscious, and so the real problem in the lack of resurrection is that they never get anything more.
I should hardly need to point out that the Old Testament overwhelmingly reports that death is unconscious. It says as much throughout the Psalms, and in Eccl 9. Some people point to Samuel’s /elohim/ coming up for the witch at Endor, but even there Samuel complains at being “disturbed”, which may refer to being awoken. There’s nothing in the passage to suggest anything else. (The same is the case in Isaiah 14’s picture of Sheol, although that could also be poetic license.)
The final line of evidence comes from intelligent design. God made us to bear His image so that we would rule over the creatures of earth (Gen 1:26, see the NET’s translation notes). As such, He made us to rule physical creation. He made us fearfully and wonderfully, with organs of sight, smell, touch, and so on. None of this was an accident, and none of it is _simple_. But why would He need to do this if our souls could just trivially see, hear, and feel things wihout bodies? The common sense answer is that they cannot naturally do that — but that God can (of course) give them experiences even withut bodies.
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Luke 16:22 is a parable. Luke 23:43, Jesus did not go to paradise that day, he made the promise that day, “I say to you today,” rather than, “I say to you, today”. Paul’s statements are from his perspective he expects to die and his next consciousness will be the eternity with the Lord. Revelation is symbolic.
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