Author

David K. Hebert, Master of Arts in Theological and Historical Studies
The Rapture of the Church: A Doctrine of the Early Church or a Recent Development of
the Dispensational Movement?
Larry Hart, Ph.D.

This thesis investigated whether the doctrine of the premillennial, pretribulation
Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in the
early Church or with the Dispensational Movement around 1830. Although the term
“rapture” does not itself appear in Scripture, it comes from the Latin words, rapere and
rapiemur and from the Greek word harpazo (which does appear in the New Testament).
The New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church, as well as
being confirmed by the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the
New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia. There are also
related non-scriptural, theological terms that were defined, the foremost being
eschatology, premillennialism, pretribulationalism and imminence. The writings of the
Ante-Nicene Fathers were examined to see if they address any of these terms. Subsequent
historical church writings were also reviewed to uncover any mention of the Rapture.

Many modern day theologians posit that the beginning of the teaching of the
Rapture, as a belief within the traditional orthodox Church, did not occur until around the
year 1830 Even most of them admit that the Church Fathers were
premillennialists (believing in a literal interpretation of the Book of Revelation,6 with its
view of a Tribulation, an Antichrist, and Jesus establishing an earthly kingdom for a
thousand years, Millennium, from the Latin words milus, meaning thousand and annum,
meaning years, after His Second Coming).

The Greek word episunagoge is mentioned as the eschatological gathering of the
faithful to Christ by: Dionysius Alexandrinus (d. 264) in Eusebius’ historia
ecclessiasticae.7.24.5, Eusebius (d. 399), himself, in his demonstratio evangelica.2.3, and
Cyrillus Alexandrinus (d. 444) in his commentarius in John.3.4.
20 Metatithemi (to
translate persons) is used to address rapture by: Clement of Rome (1st cent.), to describe
Enoch’s rapture in his First Epistle to the Corinthians.9.3; Irenaeus (d. 202), who says,
“Enoch was translated, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just and
that those who were translated into Paradise, as a prelude to immortality will remain there
until the completion of the age,” in his Against Heresies.5.5.1; Methodius (d. 311) in his
de resurrectione mortuorum.3.5, and Hippolytus Thebanus (8th cent.) in his
fragmenta.8c5 (both said that a Christian’s immortality was to begin when their body was
translated like Enoch’s); and finally, Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8

The word ekpheugo is used to mean escape, especially avoidance of eternal
punishment, by Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) in his Epistle of Trallianeos.2.1 and Justin
Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho.138.3 and First Apology.68.2.
24 Apostasia is used as
meaning departure by the apocryphal apocalyptic book of Domitio Mariae. Apostasis is
used to mean departure by Clement of Alexandria in his stromateis.4.22.
25 The Greek
words relating to rapture not used at all by the Fathers are: epairo, poreuomai, allasso,
and sozo.
As can be seen from the above citations, the Fathers had an understanding of the
concept of rapture, referred to the Old Testament raptures of Enoch and Elijah and the
New Testament raptures of Paul, John, and Jesus, and even made eight specific
references to the rapture of Christians

The first direct reference to the Rapture (as the Church escaping the Great
Tribulation) is found in the early second century apocalyptic writing of the Shepherd of
Hermas. In the fourth vision, chapter 1, he says, [emphasis added] “I saw another vision,
brethren-a representation of the tribulation that is to come.” Then in chapter 2, he says,
“lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber” and
“I knew from my former visions that this was the Church,” and then, “You have escaped
from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the
presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds,
and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye
prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible
for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days
of your life in the serving the Lord blamelessly.”31 Notice also, the statement that to
escape the tribulation the Church must keep a “pure and spotless” heart. This is the same
language used in 2 Peter 3:14, speaking of the Rapture of the Church.

The next reference is found in The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (The
Didache), written in the mid-second century, and with the help of the footnotes paints a
clear picture of the chronology of events of the End Times (Rapture, Antichrist,
Tribulation, Second Coming). In chapter 16, verses 3-8, it says [emphasis added],
For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the
sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when
lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and
then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do
iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. Then
shall the creation of men come into the fire of trial, and many shall be made to
stumble and shall perish; but they that endure in their faith shall be saved from
under the curse itself. And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first the sign of
an outspreading of heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the
third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall
come and all his saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon
the clouds of heaven.
32
Notice, the context is the Last Days and the quote starts out with the signs of the times,
coinciding with Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Next, the appearance of the
antichrist and the Tribulation are addressed. Then, there comes the exclusionary “but,”
they that endure in their faith shall be saved from under the curse itself. The footnote in
the text after this statement says, “from under the curse itself; namely, that which has just
been described.”33 This is a direct reference to the Church being saved from the
Tribulation.

Clement of Rome (30-100) spoke about the Rapture in his First Epistle to the
Corinthians. Following the logical flow of his teaching from chapter to chapter yields the
result of a Pretribulation Rapture of the Church. As Irenaeus did, Clement first gives
Enoch as an example and then mentions the Lord delivering Noah (chap. 9). He also
mentions the Lord saving Lot (chap. 11) and Rahab (chap. 12). Then, he speaks
specifically to the Church in chapter 23, [emphasis added] “Compare yourselves to a tree:
take [for instance] the vine. First of all, it sheds its leaves, then it buds, next if puts forth
leaves, and then it flowers; after that comes the sour grape, and then follows the ripened
fruit. . . . Of a truth, soon and suddenly shall His will be accomplished, as the Scripture
also bears witness, saying, ‘Speedily will He come, and will not tarry;’ and, ‘The Lord
shall suddenly come to His temple, even the Holy One, for whom ye look.”44 And
following directly after this in chapter 24

Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2

Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3

“For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

What did the first century church fathers believe about the Rapture? Were they pre-tribulation or post-tribulation? What did the disciples of the Apostles of Jesus Christ teach about the Rapture?

Discussion

81 comments

  1. Troy Day says:

    GOOD grief kind Sir NO you didnt Many dont even recognize the church fathers as authority non the less read them to learn they were all pre-mil until Augustine tried to equate the Kingdom of GOD with Byzantium I recommend again the FINE book that bro James C. Morris wrote that explains it all One Steve Conley had tried to refute it time and again but with NO luck because Irenaeus was a definite pretribber AND the eschatological system that today is called pretrib and even dispensationalism was believed centuries before JOHN Darby.

    They quote Irenaeus, for instance stated

    And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this

    THIS he tells us is
    “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous , in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”

    In his writings time and again the righteous referred to ISRAEL as the righteous nation and the right God chosen ones

    “Irenaeus in this passage describes the church leaving the sinful world just before unprecedented disasters while ISRAEL stays in this world as the last contest of the righteous , in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption Daniel ch9 speaks volumes to the end time ISRAEL as part of the Church

    Dale Moody has written, “Dispensationalism with the modern form of seven dispensations, eight covenants, and a Pretribulation Rapture is a deviation that has not been traced beyond 1830.” Dale Moody, The Word of Truth (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1981), 555, quoted in Charles C. Ryrie, Dispensationalism (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995), 14-15. Daniel Fuller has similarly written: “Ignorance is bliss, and it may well be that this popularity [of dispensationalism] would not be so great if the adherents of this system knew the historical background of what they teach. Few indeed realize that the teaching of Chafer came from Scofield, who in turn got it through the writings of Darby and the Plymouth Brethren.” Daniel P. Fuller, “The Hermeneutics of Dispensationalism” (TH.D. dis., Northern Baptist Theological Seminary, Chicago, 1975), 136, quoted in Ryrie, Dispensationalism, 61. To these critics, never mind that there is ample evidence of dispensational-type thinking in the writings of the early fathers. See generally Larry V. Crutchfield, “Ages and Dispensations in the Ante-Nicene Fathers” Bibliotheca Sacra (October-December 1987).

    • Steve Conley says:

      If the truth as I present it was not exposing your falsehoods you would not be tagging me on a continuing basis.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley Show the original from Irenaeus as you were asked already a number of times Because I can show you where he wrote exactly as was stated contrary to your claim. Also, it is needed that you present a holistic eschatological plan – what follows after another Neil Steven Lawrence and myself have stated plain and simply – pre-mil pre-trib – plan and simple Others believe pre-mil but mod or pos-trib Plain and simple Why are you so afraid to state what you believe, brother? Or what source are you using for Irenaeus…

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day I have posted what I believe and backed it up with Scripture hundreds of times in this group. You appear to be nothing more than a troublemaker. I am not here to play your games. I am faithful to preach and teach the truth of the prewrath rapture of the church. Whether you believe it or not is your perogative. However, if you chose not to believe, you will have no choice but to bear the consequences of your unbelief.

  2. Troy Day says:

    JOHN NELSON DARBY learned his system of Dispensationalism, rather, a futurist reading of the book of Revelation, from Irving’s translation of the Chilean Jesuit Lacunza’s book from Spanish to English.

    The Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations that he was the antiChrist. Ironically, the Cambridge mathematician Joseph Mede developed historical premillennialism to counter Ribera and the late sixteenth century
    The Historical Premillennial view objects to pre-tribulation rapture because they do not do not see a sharp distinction between Israel and the Church–as seen in Dispensational Premillennialism. Therefore, Historical Premmillenialsm do not beleive the “he” in 2 Thess 2:7 is the church.

    THE Darby Lacunza connection is pretty well known We have actually discussed it here somewhat – paul riviera too borrowed from Lacunza I have the detail transference of pre-Trib doctrine within the USA and in fact it was NOT via Scofiled or Darby but via the Catholic church of Latin America Scofield did nothing more than popularizing a teaching that has been already prominent in non-reformed evangelical churches like many baptists at the time

    Lacunza borrowed much from Fiore with his 3 eras of Father, Son and HS – Darby however did translate the BIBLE from original languages in French and English There is a small and not well known but very important book with his translators notes where he explains the actual BIBLE and then theology truth of his rapture findings during his double BIBLE translation I’ve tried to relate SOME of this to Link at times but it has proven to be a lost cause without basic understanding of at least Greek

    Samuel Tregelles also adopted Newton’s position against Darby and posited the view that the source of Darby’s ‘secret rapture’ theory was in fact a prophetic utterance given by one of Edward Irving’s congregation.

    I also own after much search Larkin’s original 1919 first print of his Revelation commentary It is VERY expensive and I know of only a few private owners who still have it

    BUT Larkin is NOT the earlier source I was speaking of I was speaking about Knox Fox Newton Clarke Finney George Mueller Treanch Keil Alford Ellicott and many others who before Larkin all the way to Euphem of Syria and Clement of Rome who claimed the CHURCH is taken BEFORE the rapture as most church fathers believed back then

    Then as per splitting history med. monk Joachim Fiore first split it in 3 ages There is so many one cannot count here

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley you are making completely unfounded assumptions about the conceptual basis of Dispensationalism. And your claims about its source have been conclusively refuted.

    • Yes. Darbyism is a Jesuit teaching.

    • Troy Day says:

      David Allen Stryker unfound and unsubstantial comment Darby wasnt even born at the period desribed

    • Troy Day yes and why are post trib ppl so obsessed with Darby we don’t get pre trib from Darby we get it from Paul and Friends lol

    • Aaron Michael Williamson
      We get a future 70th week from the Jesuits.
      And the secret ratpure from Darby.

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      David Allen Stryker – Nope, not WE, YOU do, don’t include us. We know how to rightfully divide His Word, we aren’t leaning unto our own understanding.

    • Troy Day How is it that you understand that Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations, but you fail to see that Ribera’s false futuristic explanations are based on the deception of the 70th week of Daniel being fulfilled in the end times?

      The 70th week of Daniel 9 prophecy foretold when Messiah would appear to carry out His ministry, and when (in the middle of the 70th week) He would confirm the everlasting covenant (that was mentioned in Daniel 9:4) with His blood as the Passover Lamb, to atone for our sins. It’s not about the end times or the antichrist.

    • Dawn Kremis
      I don’t get a future 70th week at all.
      Darbyists do.

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      Nah, just what the Bible teaches. We get you don’t get it David Allen Stryker. 14 But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters]. (1 Cor. 2:14)

    • Dawn Kremis
      Apparently nobody got it for 1800 years of church history.
      Where would we be without Darby?

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      Well, who’s all these nobodies as the Thessalonians Paul taught to got it. There were so freaked believing they had missed the PRE-trib. rapture, Paul then had to write them a 2nd letter assuring them they had not, man of lawlessness couldn’t be revealed till Restrainer taken out of the way and of course, Holy Spirit indwelling the Church is that Restrainer so once we are raptured, then the Seals will begin. Church Fathers got it. Jesus certainly said He’d remove us from the time and place of the wrath to come. Thinking HE too understands it’s Pre-Trib.

    • Dawn Kremis
      The Thessalonians thought the resurrection had passed.
      No mention of a secret ratpure.

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      Who said it’s a secret? Aren’t we talking about it? Secrets out. We don’t know when it will occur, just that it’s imminent. Paul taught it would be before the wrath and before antichrist is revealed. Hello PRE-trib rapture.

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      No, they thought the RAPTURE had happened. It IS a resurrection David Allen Stryker, for the dead in Christ.

    • Dawn Kremis says:

      How could they think they missed the “resurrection” of dead in Christ. They aren’t dead.

    • 2Tim. Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

  3. Steve Conley says:

    Troy Day, Since you tagged me I will be happy to present the truth concerning Irenaeus’ teaching to counter the twisted deception that you continually promote. Below, find my response to James Morris’ teaching that Irenaeus was a pretribulationist.

    Pretrib Writer Plays Fast and Loose with Irenaeus

    James C. Morris, the more I look at what Irenaeus said and consider your conclusions the more it appears to me that you have a bad case of pre-trib glasses or, putting it another way, tunnel vision. I honestly believe what I have just said concerning your portrayal of Irenaeus as pretrib is being very charitable. If your conclusion isn’t the onset of textual blindness due to so much time involved with and the reinforcement of a great many misunderstandings of eschatological texts, then it must be outright dishonesty. Please consider again your primary text from which you conclude that Irenaeus was pre-trib.

    Here again is the first paragraph of Volume 5, chapter 29 Against Heresies

    —-“1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance-in fact, as nothing; ” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”—-

    After reading over the paragraph a few times it is very clear that Irenaeus is referring to God’s use of the lost world (unbelieving nations) in a capacity for the good of the saved, the Church. It would appear, that he is quoting the first portion of Isa 40:15, which is: “Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: …” However, the English translation of what he says is a bit different. If the translation is correct, he appears to be saying that the unbelieving nations are considered by the Word of God to be like the water from a sink, water that you have used to clean with, but now is to be discarded. Next, he refers to the turning-weight of a balance (I’m not certain of the dynamics that he is referring to here, so I will not attempt to elaborate on this). Following that, he considers the nations to be as stubble which helps in the growth of the wheat but will be winnowed away after the threshing. Last, he likens them to straw which is burnt to provide heat for the working or refining of gold. Irenaeus has declared the purpose of the unbelieving nations as he understands it, from the Word of God.

    Next comes the “therefore,” connecting the following to the previous. Having declared the purpose of the unbelieving nations, he introduces those for whom the unbelieving nations were made useful, the CHURCH. He says that the church shall be suddenly caught up from “this”, the usefulness of the unbelieving nations, in the end. (Notice that he says they are caught up in the end, not seven years before the end. It is the end of the age which coincides with Christ’s second coming.) Then he refers to the activity or usefulness of the nations that Jesus speaks of in Matt 24:21. He says that it will be unprecedented persecution (thlipsis). Irenaeus places the church square in the middle of the great tribulation by referencing Matt 24:21. He goes on to say that this is the last contest (trial) of the righteous. The great tribulation is the last trial for the CHURCH. After the great tribulation those who overcame are given immortal bodies (crowned with incorruption). We know that this takes place at the resurrection right before the rapture. The context never changes, the CHURCH is called “the righteous.” It is utter foolishness to postulate that Irenaeus is talking about another group of believers other than the CHURCH.

    Irenaeus’ teaching in this paragraph, may appear to be strange to many Western Evangelicals, but it is supported by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles in the Holy Scriptures. He is saying that the persecution that we experience from the lost world is preparing us for the immortality that awaits us. In this era of the Prosperity Gospel, much of the professing church has come to think of violent Christian persecution as unconscionable. “God forbid that we (Churches in the West) should ever experience any serious persecution” is a common mindset. Although some will affirm an expectation of suffering persecution in the future, it is believed they are exempted from any severe form of it. Irenaeus is teaching that the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation is the use, for our good, of the unbelieving nations according to God’s purpose. He is saying that it is God’s will that we experience persecution.

    The last paragraph in chapter 28 which comes immediately before our text brings this point home.

    —-“4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: “I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.””—-

    In these two paragraphs, Irenaeus is saying that tribulation, even that tribulation that shall come at the hand of the Beast, is necessary for the CHURCH.

    James C. Morris, this is the exact opposite of your teaching on this text. You sir, are playing fast and loose with the teaching of Irenaeus.

    Troy Day, again, thank you for tagging me. It gives me another chance to counter your false teaching.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley Where is this copy pasted from and why are you tagging bro. James C. Morris as having a bad case of pre-trib glasses for just pointing out the truth about pre-mil church fathers? Seems ad hominem somehow

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day I didn’t tag him. I commented with an article I wrote over a year ago in answer to his assertion that Irenaeus was a pretriber. That same truth applies to any who make that assertion. Since you referenced his work, I didn’t take the time to modify my article to make it a generic refutation of that falsehood. You keep bringing it up, the truth hasn’t changed. There is no need that I write a new article for you every time.

    • Troy Day says:

      YES Steve Conley you are absolutely correct that I tag you because of your false assumption I believe many months ago we discussed Volume 5, chapter 29 Against Heresies and showed clearly your false assumptions

      Apart from that that you are reading some English translation of Irenaeus you are also cherry picking passages where he speaks mainly about ISRAEL and the Dan 9 end time fulfillment Last time there was a feller in the group WHO claimed knowing Greek well Once we looked into the ACTUAL passage – not random unrelated books on Vol 5, ch 29 Against Heresies we concluded that indeed Irenaeus was on only pre-mil as most church fathers were but also pre-trib and very specific pre-trib for a specific remnant church It is so clear in the original God preserved for us until now that you just cant deny it But you are not reading the original are you? You are reading someone’s interpretation that brings their theology into it AND just fits you for now Well, go read the original which I posted or we can repost it just for you to see

      Also, important you argue ONE small passage from Irenaeus having NOT considered ALL his writings which are pre-trib WHAT about the rest of the church fathers in the article?

      Eusebius spoke of God figuratively translating
      Christians at the end of the age in his preparatio evangelica.7.8

      The word ekpheugo is used to mean escape, especially avoidance of eternal
      punishment, by Ignatius of Antioch (d. 110) in his Epistle of Trallianeos.2.1 and Justin
      Martyr in his Dialogue with Trypho.138.3 and First Apology.68.2.

      The Word Apostasia is used as meaning departure by the apocryphal apocalyptic book of Domitio Mariae. Apostasis is
      used to mean departure by Clement of Alexandria in his stromateis.4.22.

      ALL Greek words relating to rapture not used at all by the Fathers are: epairo, poreuomai, allasso,
      and sozo. As can be seen from the above citations, the Fathers had an understanding of the concept of rapture, referred to the Old Testament raptures of Enoch and Elijah and the New Testament raptures of Paul, John, and Jesus, and even made eight specific references to the rapture of Christians Were ALL these wrong too – or just not fitting your unBiblical theology ?

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day Like all the others, Irenaeus believed and taught that the church would see the Antichrist revealed, suffer persecution at His hands, and then be raptured unto Christ before His eschatological wrath is poured out.

      To say anything different is outright dishonesty for those who have read his works.

    • Steve Conley Irenaeus clearly taught that the great tribulation would not begin until after the Antichrist was revealed. This completely disproves your assertion.

    • Steve Conley says:

      James C. Morris Of course the great tribulation cannot begin until the Antichrist is revealed. I said nothing contrary to that. I have no idea what you are talking about.

    • Steve Conley the point is that the fact that they had the church being put to flight by the Antichrist is not even an indication that they did not mean what they so explicitly said, that the church would be “suddenly caught up” before the great tribulation.

    • In my book, “Ancient Dispensational Truth,” I analyzed all the statements made by Irenaeus concerning the people he foresaw as having to pass through the times he wrote about, and demonstrated that, at the point in his end times scenario where he located the rapture, he suddenly and completely changed his usage of nouns and pronouns. Up to that point, he consistently called the people he was discussing either “the church” or “we” or “us.” And he called their possessions “ours.” But after that point he ALWAYS called them either “the saints,” “the righteous,” or either “they”, “them” or “those.” And he called their possessions “theirs.”

      This sudden and radical change of nouns and pronouns PROVES that he really meant what he seemed to be saying, “when the church is suddenly caught up from this, it is said, there shall be great tribulation.”

  4. Erick Alfaro says:

    Excellent article.

    • Troy Day says:

      indeed it is – Vol 5, ch 29 Against Heresies we concluded that indeed Irenaeus was on only pre-mil as most church fathers were but also pre-trib and very specific pre-trib for a specific remnant church It is so clear in the original God preserved for us until now that you just cant deny it

  5. Ron Kingpin says:

    “Then the beast was allowed to speak great blasphemies against God. And he was given authority to do whatever he wanted for 42 months”

  6. Worldwide Church of God…

  7. The CHURCH FATHERS had a limited view of eschatology. And there were deceivers and misunderstandings in those days, just like today. So we can’t blindly trust what they taught, just because they wrote in the first few centuries. History unveils prophecy, and we can see that the 70th week of Daniel was fulfilled on time when Messiah came to confirm the everlasting covenant (that was mentioned in Daniel 9:4) with His blood to atone for our sins. The concept of a future 7-year tribulation period is a deception from the enemy, to mislead the end-times saints; so there is no place for a pre-trib rapture. http://70thweekofdaniel.com

    • Troy Day says:

      This claim is wrong As we see from the article the church fathers were QUITE eschatological in their pre-mil theology bro James C. Morris This 70week book link has been spamming the discussions at least 50 times just in my observation. Is such blunt promotion allowed? I dont mind discussing our brothers link/book but not all can afford to buy it from him and critique it. David Nikao Wilcoxson can you make the book free for us to read in the group and discuss it? I dont see the point of trolling with the link in every comment here #sorry

    • Troy Day posting a link to studies which provide a greater explanation about the topic that is being discussed, is not spamming. And I already offer the book for free on the home page of the website.

  8. Troy Day says:

    David Allen Stryker as a RULE I DO NOT correct ppl on the internets However, your comment is just plain wrong
    We get a future 70th week from the Jesuits.
    And the secret ratpure from Darby.

    We do NOT get 70 weeks from ANY Jesuits. CathliX dont believe in it the same way We get 70 weeks from Ezekiel and Daniel – solid BIBLE proof

    rapture is spelled rapture NOT ratpure – the word comes from the lat. rapire translating the Greek harpazo – plain and simple NT

    And NO we do NOT get the rapture from Darby. We get the rapture from the church fathers explaining the prophecies of Christ. Just take the time to read the post and you shall see for yourself

  9. Troy Day says:

    Dawn Kremis is quite RIGHT Rightful dividing of the NT gives you the rapture You just cant miss it As bro James C. Morris has said time and again The timing of the repture is under discussion BUT it being in the BIBLE is a FACT and the Church fathers prove that well

  10. Jed Gross says:

    There as so many nuances in that article and so many assumptions its incredible. The person who wrote this is simply doing the same thing he would be doing to the scriptures that talk of a rapture, that is to read into what its saying. To say the great tribulation is a future event and is not or has not happened is just speculation, and to use speculation to define a term is just wrong. Because you assumed today what these terms mean does not mean the church fathers understood them to mean that. All this article does is redefine terms and interpreting through a dispensational lens.

  11. Troy Day says:

    Steve Con I will not engage in your personal attack on me especially when you have proven nothing so far in this OP. Here is Irenaeus own words that the Church will escape the Tribulation – disprove them if you can … but you cant cause it says exactly that http://www.textexcavation.com/documents/images/ah5p049.jpg?fbclid=IwAR0xoSDtCkSlFPjn9456pXqv8ZVQgBinGWQM2p5ZceW-8qfsnbtGN195v4I

    • Steve Conley says:

      Since you keep tagging me I will be happy to present the truth concerning Irenaeus’ teaching to counter the twisted deception that you continually promote. Below, find my response to James Morris’ teaching that Irenaeus was a pretribulationist.

      Here is a thorough exposition of the Irenaeus text in question. We find that you twist his words just as you do the Scriptures.

      Here again is the first paragraph of Volume 5, chapter 29 Against Heresies

      —-“1. In the previous books I have set forth the causes for which God permitted these things to be made, and have pointed out that all such have been created for the benefit of that human nature which is saved, ripening for immortality that which is [possessed] of its own free will and its own power, and preparing and rendering it more adapted for eternal subjection to God. And therefore the creation is suited to [the wants of] man; for man was not made for its sake, but creation for the sake of man. Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance-in fact, as nothing; ” so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.” For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”—-

      After reading over the paragraph a few times it is very clear that Irenaeus is referring to God’s use of the lost world (unbelieving nations) in a capacity for the good of the saved, the Church. It would appear, that he is quoting the first portion of Isa 40:15, which is: “Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: …” However, the English translation of what he says is a bit different. If the translation is correct, he appears to be saying that the unbelieving nations are considered by the Word of God to be like the water from a sink, water that you have used to clean with, but now is to be discarded. Next, he refers to the turning-weight of a balance (I’m not certain of the dynamics that he is referring to here, so I will not attempt to elaborate on this). Following that, he considers the nations to be as stubble which helps in the growth of the wheat but will be winnowed away after the threshing. Last, he likens them to straw which is burnt to provide heat for the working or refining of gold. Irenaeus has declared the purpose of the unbelieving nations as he understands it, from the Word of God.

      Next comes the “therefore,” connecting the following to the previous. Having declared the purpose of the unbelieving nations, he introduces those for whom the unbelieving nations were made useful, the CHURCH. He says that the church shall be suddenly caught up from “this”, the usefulness of the unbelieving nations, in the end. (Notice that he says they are caught up in the end, not seven years before the end. It is the end of the age which coincides with Christ’s second coming.) Then he refers to the activity or usefulness of the nations that Jesus speaks of in Matt 24:21. He says that it will be unprecedented persecution (thlipsis). Irenaeus places the church square in the middle of the great tribulation by referencing Matt 24:21. He goes on to say that this is the last contest (trial) of the righteous. The great tribulation is the last trial for the CHURCH. After the great tribulation those who overcame are given immortal bodies (crowned with incorruption). We know that this takes place at the resurrection right before the rapture. The context never changes, the CHURCH is called “the righteous.” It is utter foolishness to postulate that Irenaeus is talking about another group of believers other than the CHURCH.

      Irenaeus’ teaching in this paragraph, may appear to be strange to many Western Evangelicals, but it is supported by the teaching of Christ and the Apostles in the Holy Scriptures. He is saying that the persecution that we experience from the lost world is preparing us for the immortality that awaits us. In this era of the Prosperity Gospel, much of the professing church has come to think of violent Christian persecution as unconscionable. “God forbid that we (Churches in the West) should ever experience any serious persecution” is a common mindset. Although some will affirm an expectation of suffering persecution in the future, it is believed they are exempted from any severe form of it. Irenaeus is teaching that the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation is the use, for our good, of the unbelieving nations according to God’s purpose. He is saying that it is God’s will that we experience persecution.

      The last paragraph in chapter 28 which comes immediately before our text brings this point home.
      —-“4. And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the apostasy, being cast away; but the wheat, that is, those who bring forth fruit to God in faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause tribulation is necessary for those who are saved, that having been after a manner broken up, and rendered fine, and sprinkled over by the patience of the Word of God, and set on fire [for purification], they may be fitted for the royal banquet. As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: “I am the wheat of Christ, and am ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, that I may be found the pure bread of God.””—-
      In these two paragraphs, Irenaeus is saying that tribulation, even that tribulation that shall come at the hand of the Beast, is necessary for the CHURCH.

      Troy Day, you are twisting his words to fit your dangerous and bankrupt eschatological system. Irenaeus teaches the exact opposite of your saying he taught. You sir, are playing fast and loose with the teaching of Irenaeus.

      Troy Day, again, thank you for tagging me. It gives me another chance to counter your false teaching.

  12. Troy Day says:

    Costas Cleater pls stop trolling this OP with your a-mil group This is SO disrespectful Even there you admit Church Fathers were pre-mil Just read the publication of this OP above and try to get it

    • I admit no such thing. Some of them were chiliasts, no doubt, but that has almost nothing to do with Dispensationalism, which is a different beast altogether. And if memory serves, those links were not addressed to you, but a fellow Finalist, to whom I was indicating my agreement. I know I’d be wasting my time trying to inform you about the eschatology of the early church.

  13. Troy Day says:

    David Nikao Wilcoxson all I am asking is discuss the OP instead of twisting my words and trolling with your book, which we already got. I have never understood Jesuit Francisco Ribera invented futurist prophecy to shield the Pope from accusations!!! This is your take on history which is irrelevant There is ALL these church fathers speaking of futurist prophecy not to mention JESUS and the NT church

    • The fact that you don’t understand that Jesuit Francisco Ribera wrote a 500-page commentary on prophecy, in which he pushed the 70th week of Daniel 9 into the future; doesn’t change the truth.

      That aside, when we take Daniel’s definitions for the primary words in the prophecy, we see the fulfillment.

    • Troy Day says:

      David Nikao Wilcoxson neither that fact as you call it NOR the fake book website you are constantly trolling my posts with are relevant to what is being said here The 70th week of Daniel 9 is interpreted SO since the Church fathers as shown in this OP That the pope used it to manipulate his power is no secret to anyone Pls troll NO more ! Thank you

    • Troy Day The fact that you don’t understand the fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel, doesn’t mean that my explanations are fake. The sad irony is that Messiah died in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel for our sins, and here you are declaring that it hasn’t been fulfilled yet. You will stand before Messiah to account for your false teachings!

    • Troy Day says:

      David Nikao Wilcoxson Barnabas writes, “For it is written, ‘And it shall come to pass, when the week is completed, the temple
      of God shall be built…in the name of the Lord.’ I find…that a temple does exist..”(EOB, 16:6)

      This early Christian writer connects Daniel’s vision of seventy weeks with the prophecy of Haggai 2:7-9 and the building of the Church. The author of the Epistle of Barnabas obviously believed that Daniel’s 70th week was a future event after Christ’s first advent.

      Clement became bishop of Alexandria until his death in 215 AD. Clement writes of the destruction of the Temple by the Romans in 70 AD in the prophetic language of Daniel’s seventy weeks,
      “Vespasian rose to the supreme power (Emperor of Rome) and destroyed Jerusalem, and desolated the holy place” (STO, XXI, 142-143).

      Origen writes, “The weeks of years up to the time of Christ the leader that Daniel the prophet predicted were fulfilled” (TPR, IV:1:5).

      Athanasius was bishop of Alexandria from 326 to 373 AD. “Jerusalem is to stand till His coming (second advent), and thenceforth, prophet and vision cease in Israel…but from that time forth all prophecy is sealed and the city and Temple taken” (INC, XXXIX:3-XV:8).

      Irenaeus and his pupil Hippolytus believed in a still-future fulfillment of Daniel’s 70th week. They both placed the 70th week at the end of the gospel age and so are the first interpreters to postulate a gap between the 69th and
      70th weeks (AG, V).

      Eusebius (325) wrote: “So when all the intermediate matter between the seven and the sixty-two weeks is finished, there is added, ‘And he will confirm a Covenant with many one week,’ and in half the week the sacrifice and the libation shall be taken away, and on the Holy Place shall come the abomination of desolation…Let us consider how this shall be fulfilled.

      ‘When ye shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the Prophet, standing in the Holy Place, then ye shall know that her desolation draws near.’” (The Proof of the Gospel, chapter 2)

    • Troy Day That information doesn’t prove anything other than people make false associations. The ‘covenant’ that’s mentioned in Daniel 9:27, is the same covenant that Daniel was praying for the Heavenly Father to remember in regard to the Jews, in Daniel 9:4.

      So the covenant already existed and it’s not an end-times covenant by the antichrist.

      It’s the everlasting covenant that was made to Abraham. Abraham took Isaac up to sacrifice him, and Isaac asked ‘where is the lamb?’ Abraham told him that the Father would provide a lamb to atone for their sins. The Father provided a ram that day, but Abraham looked to the day when the Lamb of God would be sacrificed to atone for His sins.

      That lamb is Messiah who confirmed the everlasting covenant with His blood on Passover, in the middle of the 70th week of Daniel.

    • Troy Day says:

      David Nikao Wilcoxson what is ANY of this has to do with OP You are off topic and leading others astray Sadly your ad hominem attack is just to promote your book Pls consider another much better writ here https://ourcog.org/irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

    • Troy Day Seriously? My explanation of the fulfillment of the 70th week of Daniel is directly connected to the OP. The pre-trib rapture is based on the concept of a futuristic 70th week of Daniel. But the 70th week was fulfilled by Messiah, so it’s not future. This invalidates the pre-trib rapture position.

      Please explain to me what covenant Daniel is referring to in Daniel 9:4?

  14. Troy Day says:

    David Allen Stryker Dawn Kremis NObody except ALL the church fathers listed in this OP, along with Jesus, Paul and the whole early church who anticipated pre-Trib RAPTURE #ohWell

    • Troy Day.
      The church fathers lived at the time of Nero. And the next 300 years of persecution.
      Nobody was raptured then.
      And wont be later

    • Troy Day says:

      David Allen Stryker This thesis investigated whether the doctrine of the premillennial, pretribulation
      Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in the
      early Church or with the Dispensational Movement around 1830. Although the term
      “rapture” does not itself appear in Scripture, it comes from the Latin words, rapere and
      rapiemur and from the Greek word harpazo (which does appear in the New Testament).
      The New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church, as well as
      being confirmed by the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the
      New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia. There are also
      related non-scriptural, theological terms that were defined, the foremost being
      eschatology, premillennialism, pretribulationalism and imminence. The writings of the
      Ante-Nicene Fathers were examined to see if they address any of these terms. Subsequent
      historical church writings were also reviewed to uncover any mention of the Rapture.

      The first direct reference to the Rapture (as the Church escaping the Great
      Tribulation) is found in the early second century apocalyptic writing of the Shepherd of
      Hermas. In the fourth vision, chapter 1, he says, [emphasis added] “I saw another vision,
      brethren-a representation of the tribulation that is to come.” Then in chapter 2, he says,
      “lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber” and
      “I knew from my former visions that this was the Church,” and then, “You have escaped
      from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the
      presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds,
      and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye
      prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible
      for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days
      of your life in the serving the Lord blamelessly.”31 Notice also, the statement that to
      escape the tribulation the Church must keep a “pure and spotless” heart. This is the same
      language used in 2 Peter 3:14, speaking of the Rapture of the Church.

  15. Troy Day says:

    I’ve read everything Tregelles aspre-exam requirement for one of my degrees I also read REese when he first published in 1975 And recently I read Brown and Keener and the whole NAR bunch but so what? I prefer the actual church fathers Have you read Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 a.d.), which clearly teaches that believers will be raptured and taken to Heaven before The Tribulation.2

    Ephraem of Nisibis was the most important and prolific of the Syrian church fathers and a witness to early Christianity on the fringes of the Roman Empire in the late fourth century.

    He was well-known for his poetry, exegetical and theological writings, and many of the hymns of the early Byzantine church. So popular were his works that in the fifth and sixth centuries he was adopted by several Christian communities as a spiritual leader and role model.

    This sermon is deemed to be one of the most interesting apocalyptic texts of the early Middle Ages. The translation of the sermon includes the following segment:3

    “For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.”

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day, The statement, “ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” came to mind as I was reading the above comment. You search far and wide to find any ancient writer whose words can be construed to provide support for your unbiblical eschatological model. Have you learned nothing from your reading of ancient texts? They all (the antinicene fathers) believed that the church would see the antichrist, suffer unprecedented persecution at his hand, and then be caught up unto Christ before He begins to tribulate the earth-dwellers for their persecution of His own.

      Another thing I find interesting is that you conveniently did not give the common moniker and attribution for the document you speak of. It is known as Pseudo Ephraem. Why would you leave that out? Could it be that even the name casts doubt upon its contents?

      Of course there will be a rapture of the church before the eschatological wrath of God begins to be poured out. But there will not be a rapture before the days of unprecedented persecution and supernatural deception that Jesus called megas thlipsis (great tribulation). Your whole contention, that there is ancient evidence of a belief in a pre-seventieth week rapture of the church hinges upon the proper interpretation of various Greek, Syriac, Latin, words equivelent with the English word tribulation. You need those to refer to the seventieth week, but that is not the case.

      For a man who claims to have 2 PhD’s, does it not tell you something when you must search far and wide to find even a handful of ancient writings that can be construed to speak of a pretrib rapture? Is it not also instructive that there is not a single ancient document the presents the pretrib eschatological model as it is taught today? Sure, there are tenets of pretribulationism that were believed by the ancient church fathers. Not all the tenets of pretribulationism are unbiblical. How could a lie be so sucessful without it having truth in its mixture.

  16. Troy Day says:

    Steve Con You copy pasting your false reading of Irenaeus ONLY gives us a chance to AFFIRM he was a definite pre-tribber expecting the church to be taken away BEFORE the Tribulation and the wrath of God pouring down. The statements of imminency have affirmed that the early fathers held to pre-tribulationalism in the modern sense. Your claim that Irenaeus was as forthright a posttribulationist is simply A wrongful assumption because you have not dealt with the actual original writ and your assumption is therefore unwarranted for several reasons. First, the early fathers (before 324) lived in a world of Roman persecution which was for them a way of life and a factor in all they believed and did. The Romans called them “atheists” for failing to worship their gods. Second, the early fathers treated these issues of persecution in a simplistic, unreflective manner, which is hardly a post-tribulational position. As to the Rapture they were mostly pre-trib. As you have copied some Irenaeus you have shown he believed the worldly church and Israel will go via persecution BUT the TRUE church shall escape. This is more than clear in his strong emphasis upon imminency. Irenaeus understood a literal coming of Christ, and a literal 1,000- year kingdom to follow the rapture of the church. This is in fact a type of imminent pre-trib or as some have determined intratribulationism but not a shadow of posttribulationism as pretribulational inferences was strongly believed. Irenaeus understood a kind of “practical persecution,” due to times of general Roman persecution that they experienced. So to your FIRST invalid point of your copy paste I invite you to learn about Joseph Mede (1586-1638) Mede is considered the “father of English premillennialism,” having written Clavis Apocalyptica (“Key of the Revelation”) in 1627 in which “He attempted to construct an outline of the Apocalypse based solely upon internal considerations. In this interpretation he advocated premillennialism in such a scholarly way that this work continued to influence eschatological interpretation for centuries. Additionally, James C. Morris whom I recommended to my class before has also written a great book on Key to Prophecy you need to consider reading along with Philip Williams The author has made the book FREE for yall so you can learn from it ASAP as the time nears https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TYJ71FY/ref=dbs_a_def_rwt_bibl_vppi_i0

  17. Troy Day says:

    Steve Conley As to your SECOND point which is funny since you are looking into the ENGLISH someone butchered and make your premise on words like this and therefore that my friend are NOT even in the original Greek writing of Irenaeus. You are making assumptions based on words that are NOT even in the text and you cannot show in any way shape form or capacity that these words are there – but this is true to all your illogical assumptions made on things that are just not there Just read it for yourself and you will see

    https://ourcog.org/irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

    THE TRUTH is Irenaeus connects the Scriptural references of Enoch, Elijah, and Paul being raptured and applies it to what will happen in the future with the consummation of all things when the saints will return with Christ.

    For Enoch, when he pleased God, was translated in the same body in which he did please Him, thus pointing out by anticipation the translation of the just. Elijah, too, was caught up [when he was yet] in the substance of the [natural] form; thus exhibiting in prophecy the assumption of those who are spiritual, and that nothing stood in the way of their body being translated and caught up. For by means of the very same hands through which they were moulded at the beginning, did they receive this translation and assumption…. Wherefore also the elders who were disciples of the apostles tell us that those who were translated were transferred to that place (for paradise has been prepared for righteous men, such as have the Spirit; in which place also Paul the apostle, when he was caught up, heard words which are unspeakable as regards us in our present condition), and that there shall they who have been translated remain until the consummation [of all things], as a prelude to immortality.

    LATER Around 250 A.D., Cyprian also used the word in reference to Paul “even after his rapture to the third heaven and paradise…” From the use of the word in early Latin Christian authors, it is clearly meant to be understood as being raised up to heaven, and in the case of Elijah specifically we can know that it was bodily, while Paul himself discussed whether it was “in the body… or out of the body” (2 Corinthians 12:2).
    It is obvious that, both Elijah and Enoch experienced the same “rapture” which in the New Testament refers to as “translated” [μετετθη, μετεθηκεν] “translation” [μεταθεσεως] (Hebrew 11:5) which means “transfer or transport, exchange, change or carry.” Clement of Alexandria Identifies, again, a bodily resurrection in connection with the idea of translation. “Further the Gospel says, that many bodies of those that slept arose,— plainly as having been translated to a better state. There took place, then, a universal movement and translation through the economy of the Saviour.”

    • Troy Day where did you get this book from? Would you mind sharing it with me?

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day Are you so unable to support your position that you must continually erect a strawman to argue against. No one is denying that there will be a rapture of the church before the wrath of God begins. I am denying that the early church fathers, if that is what you wish to call them, ever taught a pre-seventieth week rapture of the church. The historic church believed and taught that the church would witness the Beast and suffer persecution at his hand before being caught up to Christ. That is exactly what Irenaeus taught.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley no strawman and not my position Just Irenaeus in a very plain and simple ancient tongue Pls read https://ourcog.org/irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

  18. Troy Day says:

    Steve Conley To your Third and final FALSE point where you read Irenaeus writing about AFTER the tribulation and Israel and your quite falsely interpret to say it is for the church during the Tribulation WHICH BTW is NOT true since Irenaeus already told us the Church has been taken away in the rapture. If we broaden the contextual scope before and after Irenaeus’s statement you single out with the purpose of forcing it to say what you need to prove your false point, it will be seen that he clearly makes additional statements that the Church will encounter the Antichrist after the7 years of the Tribulation as it returns victorious with Christ and wins the battle of Armageddon. The following relevant statements by Irenaeus that your omit shows that clearly:
    And they [the ten kings who shall arise] shall lay Babylon waste, and burn her with fire, and shall give their kingdom to the beast, and put the Church to flight. (Against Heresies, V, 26, 1) – obviously chronology
    After the rapture of the church Irenaeus plainly tells us
    10 kings shall arise
    Babylon destroyed
    Kingdom of the beast
    put the Church to flight in Armageddon
    Just read Revelation and tell me WHEN is Babylon destroyed ? It is a clear chronological marker showing Irenaeus and the early church as pre-trib And he proceeds to tell us that
    It is therefore more certain, and less hazardous, to await the fulfillment of the prophecy [the Antichrist], than to be making surmises, and casting about for any names that may present themselves, inasmuch as many names can be found possessing the number mentioned; and the same question will, after all, remain unsolved. . . . But he indicates the number of the name now, that when this man [the Antichrist] comes we may avoid him (Against Heresies, V, 30, 3, 4)
    Obviously IF you are on earth during the Tribulation you cannot AVOID the Antichrist Book of Revelation tells us so. Except if you are raptured before he appears in order to avoid him as Rev 3:10 promises to the TRUE CHURCH

  19. Steve Conley says:

    Troy Day, The statement, “ever learning, but never able to come to the knowledge of the truth” came to mind as I was reading your comments. You search far and wide to find any ancient writer whose words can be construed to provide support for your unbiblical eschatological model. Have you learned nothing from your reading of ancient texts? They all (the ante Nicene fathers) believed that the church would see the antichrist, suffer unprecedented persecution at his hand, and then be caught up unto Christ before He begins to tribulate the earth-dwellers for their persecution of His own.

    Another thing I find interesting is that you conveniently did not give the common moniker and attribution for the document you speak of. It is known as Pseudo Ephraem. Why would you leave that out? Could it be that even the name casts doubt upon its contents?

    Of course, there will be a rapture of the church before the eschatological wrath of God begins to be poured out. But there will not be a rapture before the days of unprecedented persecution and supernatural deception that Jesus called megas thlipsis (great tribulation). Your whole contention, that there is ancient evidence of a belief in a pre-seventieth week rapture of the church hinges upon the proper interpretation of various Greek, Syriac, Latin, words equivalent with the English word tribulation. You need those to refer to the seventieth week, but that is not the case.

    For a man who claims to have 2 PhD’s, does it not tell you something when you must search far and wide to find even a handful of ancient writings that can be construed to speak of a pretrib rapture? Is it not also instructive that there is not a single ancient document the presents the pretrib eschatological model as it is taught today? Sure, there are tenets of pretribulationism that were believed by the ancient church fathers. Not all the tenets of pretribulationism are unbiblical. How could a lie be so successful without it having truth in its mixture.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley I cannot engage in your ad hominem but rather quote the BIBLE from 2 Peter 3:16
      As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
      https://ourcog.org/irenaeus-on-the-pre-trib-rapture/

    • Steve Conley says:

      Troy Day Your wresting of the Scriptures and of ancient texts is what I have been exposing. Your “projection” rivals that of the Godless Democrats who are always charging others with the crimes that they are uniquely guilty of.

      Eschatologically your foundational problem is that you fail to recognize the difference between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord.

      You are by no means alone, many fail to distinguish between the period of unprecedented persecution of the elect and ethnic Israel and the period of God’s eschatological wrath. The first Jesus called megas thlipsis (great tribulation); the second is the day of the Lord, which begins with Christ’s arrival at His parousia. The wrath that is present in each period has a different source, object, and expression.

      In the period of unprecedented persecution that Jesus called great tribulation, we find the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:12), through the Beast (Rev 13:7), upon the elect (Matt 24:9, 22, 24, 31; Romans 8:33; 11:7) and ethnic Israel (Deut 4:30; 32:36; Jer 30:7; Dan 12:1, 7; Rev 12:9-17) in the form of economic isolation (Rev 13:17), violent persecution (Matt 24:9, 22), supernatural deception (Matt 24:24; 2Thes 2:9) and beheading (Rev 20:4).

      The day of the Lord is markedly different from the great tribulation. In the day of the Lord the wrath is from God (Rev 6:16-17; 15:1), upon the unbelieving (2Thes 1:8), saints persecuting (2Thes 1:6; Rev 6:9-11; Dan 7:25; Rev 13:7), Beast worshiping (Rev 14:10), earth-dwellers (Rev 3:10), as a recompense of vengeance (Isa 34:8; 35:4; 2Thes 1:6-8) in the form of the trumpet and vial judgments (Rev 8-9; 16-19). Not only is the character of the two periods totally different, but their relationship to the cosmic sign that the Prophets, Christ, and the Apostles spoke of is the opposite.

      We are told that the day of the Lord comes after the cosmic sign, but that the great tribulation comes before it (Joel 2:31; Matt 24:29; Rev 6:12). This is incontrovertible evidence that the eschatological wrath of God is not present in the great tribulation, but only comes after the sun, moon, and stars go dark in the day of the Lord.

      If your eyes were opened to see this truth, it would force you to reevaluate your whole eschatological model. But instead of believing what you have been shown, you will return to the circular reasoning that has held up pretribulationism for these past 150 years.

    • Troy Day says:

      Steve Conley I would like to help you stay focused a little since you seem to stray largely in your ad hominem. I have not yet started exegeting texts for you and therefore cannot be blamed into wresting anything since you do know have yet enough about theological approach or exegetical model. Furthermore, I do not experience your foundational problem as I do recognize the difference between the great tribulation and the day of the Lord.

      BUT enough with your ad hominem just to hook your regular copy pastes and say something in defense of your week eschatology. It is now clear you do not have a plain eschatological plan to present and only copy paste from other authors to back what appears to be a fictional position. You have failed to even read the provided Church Fathers and Irenaeus in at least one original writing and anecdotal claims on Irenaeus were quite fastly debunked you aint got nothing left BUT to copy paste things that appear to be theological writings but are simply your old copy pastes which from my archives I see we have long disproved as meaningless.

      Anyhow, BACK to Irenaeus – apart from your English rendering of [help] words in italics or parenthetics like the and therefore, you have shown absolutely NO proof against my thesis of Irenaeus and the church fathers being strongly pre-Trib. Therefore, we can largely conclude in this discussion that your personal failure to engage with Irenaeus on a more academic grounds leaves us without a doubt that Irenaeus and the church fathers were in fact strongly pre-Trib as their writing showed in this OP clearly indicate.

      Your ad hominin and otherwise personal attacks I leave with no comment as they are not in any away a valuable part of this discussion, but simply show your lack of further proof and frank helplessness in interpreting the BIBLE and any given ancient texts in any scholastic manner.

  20. Rob Burr says:

    The writer continually interprets the tribulation responses of the ECFs in the text according to his own (erroneous) pre trib belief system.
    Believers have always been escaping the tribulation of Israel – and by a number of ways.
    Firstly by the ordinary fact of life; aging and death.
    Others by escaping the Holy Land and the many other lands which were occupied by the antichrist.

    We are STILL SEEING THIS TODAY in the flood of refugees into Europe from islamic controlled countries in the Middle East, Africa and Asia.

    The final rapture and earthquake immediately before the judgement has NOT HAPPENED YET, but people have been escaping from the ancient totalitarian antichrist regimes for over 2,500 years, the last antichrist empire for half that long and from the Whore City, Babylon the Great, for 500 years!

    Don’t confuse ‘fleeing’ or ‘escaping’ from tribulation with rapture.