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Is there any difference between Rapture and Jesus coming with the shouts of Trumpets and angels? If it so, what do you mean by Jesus’s second coming?
Discussion
34 comments
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ANY of you got anything to say on this here OP? Rob Burr Steve Conley Daniel Finlay Philip Williams WE have LONG established with Neil Steven Lawrence and James C. Morris that the pre-MIL rapture is a BIBLE fact and chosen teaching of the Early Church It’s timing is to be determined as pre-trib SOON I can re-post you the list of differences if so you chose but for now let me QUOTE
As the question has come up again, I am re-posting a previous post about the New Testament’s references to the physical restoration of the ancient nation of Israel.
Many people imagine that the many scriptural promises of a future restoration of Israel, both to her ancient homeland and to her God, are contained only in the Old Testament, and they imagine this means they no longer apply. But it is not only the Old Testament that declares that Israel will eventually be restored!
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David Allen Stryker and what of the living left here after the dead in Christ are raised?? Are they not raptured up??
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Robert M. Dennis
Yes.
The few living saints who survive the beheading for refusing the mark of the beast. -
The unsaved living are ALL destroyed by the brightness of His coming.
Leaving the earth void of human life -
David Allen Stryker ok. Who then is the nations the gather and march to the Holy city and surround it. You know the ones that the Lord destroys with fire!!
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Robert M. Dennis
They are “the rest of the dead who lived not until the 1000 years are finished”. -
The Wicked of all ages.
From Cain to the last sinner slain at the 2nd coming. -
David Allen Stryker so their raised from the dead and the dead surround the holy city to only be destroyed again then to be raised again to be judged?? Please show me scripture support for this being the “dead”.
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David Allen Stryker so after the 1000 yrs. ? didn’t know your position.
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Robert M. Dennis
Yes. Two resurrections.
1000 years apart.
1st at the second coming.
Only the saved. -
Robert M. Dennis
: So, a “millennial kingdom on earth” is not possible.
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The parables of the wheat and the tares was explained by Jesus as the harvest of the earth by the angels at the end of the world. There is only one harvest in the parable.
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The Rapture will occur when Jesus Christ returns for his church. This is when all true believers in Christ will be taken from the earth by God into heaven (1 Corinthians 15:51–52; 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17).
The Second Coming will happen when Jesus Christ returns to the church to defeat the antichrist, overthrow evil and then establish his thousand-year reign on earth (Revelation 19:11–16).
Comparing the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ
In the study of Eschatology, these two events are often confused because they are similar. Both happen during end times and both describe a return of Christ. Yet there are important differences to discern. The following is a comparison of the Rapture and the Second Coming of Christ, highlighting the key distinctions noted in Scripture.1) Meeting in the Air – Versus – Returning with Him
In the Rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air:For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:16– 17 (NIV)
In the Second Coming, believers return with the Lord:
The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. Revelation 19:14 (NIV)
2) Before Tribulation – Versus – After Tribulation
The Tribulation is a future seven-year period when God will complete his discipline of Israel and final judgment upon the unbelieving citizens of the world. The Rapture will happen before the Tribulation:For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
While the Second Coming will happen at the end of the Tribulation:
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave,great and small.” Revelation 17-18 (NIV)
3) Deliverance – Versus – Judgment
In the Rapture believers are taken from the earth by God as an act of deliverance:After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 1 Thessalonians 4:13– 17
For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Thessalonians 5:9 (NIV)
In the Second Coming unbelievers are removed from the earth by God as an act of judgment:Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth. Revelation 3:10 (NIV)
But the beast was captured and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs, he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. Revelation 19:11-21 )NIV)
4) Hidden – Versus – Seen by All
The Rapture, according to Scripture, will be an instantaneous, hidden event:Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. 1 Corinthians 15:50-54
The Second Coming, according to Scripture, will be seen by everyone:“Look, he is coming with the clouds,” and “every eye will see him, even those who pierced him”; and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.” So shall it be! Amen. Revelation 1:7
5) At Any Moment – Versus – Only After Certain Events
The Rapture could happen at any moment:…While we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13 (NIV)
For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 (NIV)
The Second Coming won’t happen until certain events take place:He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called Godor is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. 2 Thessalonians 2:4 (NIV)
Immediately after the distress of those days, “The sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.” Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. Matthew 24:15-30 (NIV)
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and everyone else, both slave and free, hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can withstand it?” Revelation 6-18 (NIV) -
There is Only One Future Coming of Christ
When considering Christ’s Parousia (His coming) it is important to realize that those who fail to recognize the difference between that period of unprecedented persecution of the elect and ethnic Israel that Jesus called great tribulation and the period of the eschatological wrath of God in the day of the Lord, are forced into dividing Christ’s singular future Parousia, His second, into two future comings. It is true that we will not experience God’s eschatological wrath, but the church will most certainly go through the unprecedented persecution of the great tribulation which precedes the day of the Lord. The Scriptures testify of that which the churches have taught throughout the last 2000 years, the singular future parousia of Christ, His second.
Believers have always recognized that Jesus would remain with the Father in Heaven until He is sent by Him at the times of the restitution of all things. That is what Peter said.
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Paul said that His coming would be His second, at which time He will bring salvation.
Heb 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation.
There is no mention of a third or fourth parousia in the Scriptures. We are raptured at His second parousia. His first parousia took place ~ 2000 years ago at Christ’s first advent. The Greek word parousia means arrival and continuing presence. It is found 24 times in the NT. It is translated “coming” or “presence”. In 17 of the 24 appearances in the NT it refers to Christ’s arrival and continuing presence. It cannot be overemphasized, that it refers to more than His initial arrival. It involves the whole of Christ’s activity after He is sent by the Father (Gal 4:4; Acts 3:19-21). His first coming was more than His conception. It involved His life, ministry, death, burial, and resurrection. So also, shall His second coming (parousia) involve much more than His initial appearing. It will include all His eschatological activity through the millennium at the least.
The classic rapture passage is a description of our gathering unto Christ at this parousia, Christ’s second.
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the COMING [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Our gathering unto Christ at the rapture is associated with the Parousia, His second coming.
2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the COMING [parousia] of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by OUR GATHERING TOGETHER UNTO HIM,
It is at this coming [parousia] that we are rescued, before the wrath falls, like Noah and Lot were rescued first.
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the COMING [parousia] of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Mat 24:39 AND KNEW NOT until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the COMING [parousia] of the Son of man be.It is at this coming that Christ will REVEAL Himself in glory with the mighty angels. Notice that His Revelation takes place at His Parousia.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luk 17:27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luk 17:29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luk 17:30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is REVEALED [apokalupsis].Jesus taught that the wrath that He brings at His coming and revelation is unexpected by the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. He also taught that the righteous (those justified in Him) would be taken to safety before His wrath falls. There is one more important truth that He emphasizes in the Luke 17:26-30 passage. It is the same day connection between our rescue and His wrath falling upon our persecutors.
It is at this COMING and REVELATION that the persecuted church will rest from persecution and Christ will, in RECOMPENSE, begin to tribulate those who persecuted us.
2Th 1:6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to RECOMPENCE tribulation to them that trouble you;
2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be REVEALED [apokalupsis] from heaven with his mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking VENGEANCE on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
2Th 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
2Th 1:10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.It is this coming that initiates the day of the Lord, the period of God’s eschatological wrath. It is a RECOMPENCE of VENGEANCE upon those who persecuted us who are His elect.
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD’S VENGEANCE, and the year of RECOMPENCES for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 35:4 Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with VENGEANCE, even God with a RECOMPENCE; he will come and save you.
It is a response to the cries of the saints that their blood be avenged upon the Beast worshiping, earth-dwellers who persecuted them.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and AVENGE our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.When the final number of those to die as martyrs in the great tribulation is fulfilled, Christ will come speedily and avenge them. But between the many who fall away and those slain as martyrs shall there be Faith on the earth?
Luk 18:7 And shall not God AVENGE his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8 I tell you that he will AVENGE them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?Continued below
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Continued from above
Jesus said that the violent persecution of the great tribulation will cause “many to be offended” and the false prophets of that day, who use lying signs and wonders, “shall deceive many.” Will any believers remain?
Mat 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake.
Mat 24:10 And THEN SHALL MANY BE OFFENDED, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and SHALL DECEIVE MANY.Paul referred to this falling away, saying that it must come before Christ’s Parousia, before His day.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come A FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
Jesus says that the days of that unprecedented persecution and supernatural deception must be shortened (cut short) to save some of the elect alive upon the earth.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except THOSE DAYS should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.It is these who make it through the great tribulation persecution of the elect, that are “ALIVE AND REMAIN” when Christ comes.
1Th 4:17 Then we which are ALIVE AND REMAIN shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
It is they of whom Christ said:
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED.
The salvation in context is the physical deliverance that shall come at Christ’s appearing and revelation. It is that salvation that we are appointed unto in 1Thes 5:9.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.The wrath, that we are not appointed unto, is God’s wrath in the day of the Lord. We see this from the context of 1Thes 5:9 as seen in verses 2 and 3. Notice that the sudden (unexpected) destruction comes upon the earth dwellers in the day of the Lord.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.Notice that the wrath of God in the day of the Lord comes unexpectedly upon the unbelieving, Beast worshiping, earth dwellers. But we are told that we are not in darkness that the day should overtake us as a thief. Christ’s arrival will not be unexpected for us because Christ has given us many signs which will precede His coming.
The sign that immediately precedes Christ’s arrival in the clouds with the mighty angels is that cosmic sign that was said to come before the day of the Lord. It is the darkening of the sun, moon, and stars that is often spoken of in association with the day of His fierce wrath.
Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
John sees this very sign when the sixth seal is opened. It follows a great earthquake that moves mountains and islands out of their places.
Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.These are the very events that Jesus says, when we see them, to be encouraged (“lift up your heads”) and look to the sky (“look up”) for our redemption is nigh. He communicated that when these things happen, He will arrive to gather us unto himself at any moment. Notice how Jesus describes the effects of the great earthquake, “the sea and the waves roaring”. Even the fear, perplexity, and distress match John’s description in Rev 6:15-17 and Isaiah’s in Isa 2:19.
Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
Luk 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.After the cosmic sign Jesus will be revealed coming in a cloud with power and great glory. Every eye will see Him with the mighty angels.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.It is following His revelation that Christ raises the dead (1Cor 15:23), changes the survivors of the great tribulation (1Cor 15:51-52), and gathers us to Himself via the angels (1Thes 4:15-17; Matt 24:31). Notice that the cosmic sign comes after the great tribulation (Matt 24:29). The tribulation of those days is the great tribulation referred to by that name in verses 21-22.
May our gracious Lord open your eyes to these truths.
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Rapture/Translation
1 Translation of all believers
2 Translated saints go to heaven
3 Earth not judged
4 Imminent, any-moment, signless
5 Not in the Old Testament
6 Believers only
7 Before the day of wrath
8 No reference to Satan
9 Christ comes for His own
10 He comes in the air
11 He claims His bride
12 Only His own see Him
13 Tribulation begins2nd Coming/ Estab. Kingdom
1 No translation at all
2 Translated saints return to earth
3 Earth judged & righteousness
established
4 Follows definite predicted signs
including tribulation
5 Predicted often in Old Testament
6 Affects all men
7 Concluding the day of wrath
8 Satan bound
9 Christ comes with His own
10 He comes to the earth
11 He comes with His bride
12 Every eye shall see Him
13 Millennial Kingdom begins-
Troy Day Nice list – but you forgot to mention that the “fake Saints” are “left behind.“
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Neil Steven Lawrence Philip Williams David Allen Stryker This thesis investigated whether the doctrine of the premillennial, pretribulation
Rapture of the Church, as a separate event from Jesus’ second coming, originated in the
early Church or with the Dispensational Movement around 1830. Although the term
“rapture” does not itself appear in Scripture, it comes from the Latin words, rapere and
rapiemur and from the Greek word harpazo (which does appear in the New Testament).
The New Testament text supports the concept of a Rapture of the Church, as well as
being confirmed by the raptures of Enoch, Elijah and Jesus. There are related terms in the
New Testament that have been addressed, the foremost being parousia. There are also
related non-scriptural, theological terms that were defined, the foremost being
eschatology, premillennialism, pretribulationalism and imminence. The writings of the
Ante-Nicene Fathers were examined to see if they address any of these terms. Subsequent
historical church writings were also reviewed to uncover any mention of the Rapture.The first direct reference to the Rapture (as the Church escaping the Great
Tribulation) is found in the early second century apocalyptic writing of the Shepherd of
Hermas. In the fourth vision, chapter 1, he says, [emphasis added] “I saw another vision,
brethren-a representation of the tribulation that is to come.” Then in chapter 2, he says,
“lo! a virgin meets me, adorned as if she were proceeding from the bridal chamber” and
“I knew from my former visions that this was the Church,” and then, “You have escaped
from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the
presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds,
and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye
prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible
for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days
of your life in the serving the Lord blamelessly.”31 Notice also, the statement that to
escape the tribulation the Church must keep a “pure and spotless” heart. This is the same
language used in 2 Peter 3:14, speaking of the Rapture of the Church.-
Neil Steven Lawrence Tribulation =
G3986 – peirasmos πειρασμός The Bride will not go through the Great Tribulation! Revelation 3:10. But those that are spiritually asleep drunken in the night with the world, will go through the first 3.5 of it, then they are caught up in the 7th chapter of revelation. They had robes, they were robed in the righteousness of Christ, but they allowed themselves to have been tarnished with the cares of this world and the flesh. After they see the Bide has been taken out and they left behind, they repent washing those robes back in the blood. They have palms in their hands, they have to be fed, where they never learned to feed themselves the Word of God. Those in the 4th chapter 4 and 20 eldersers the 4 living ones are the Bride of Christ. They are symbolic beings, but they make up the bridal company. 4 and 20 number 24 is the Lords Govermental number doubled, because His Bride reigns with Him, that is the Brides Priestly side. The four faced Beast are their characteristics of their kingly side as they yielded to the Lord while on the earth. They take on Christs character. Matthew portrays Christ as King, the cherubic figure is the lion, Christ is the lion of the tribe of Judah. Mark portrays Christ as servant, the offering portrayed is the sin offering. The greatest of the sin offering was an ox therefore, we see the side of Christ as the calf. Luke portrays Christ as man, Christ was a peace offering as man. Therefore, we see the face of man in the 4 faced beast. John portrays Christ as is Heavenly heavenly nature and we see the side of the Eagal, and the Bride reflects all these Caharsistics of Christ. These ones have crowns and they may them at Jesus feet. And they cry out that He Jesus has made them kings and priests unto our God. The ones in Chapter 7 are not declared as so. And keep in mind that the book of Revelation is a vision, and anything can happen in a vision.
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