This verse proves the Rapture is BEFORE…

Here is a verse that proves the Rapture happens BEFORE the 70th Week of Daniel (aka…the 7 year Tribulation).

For the record, Daniel 9:27 states it is ONE week of years. The week itself is broken up into two parts, but they are together separated only by the Abomination of Desolation (Jesus puts it in the middle in Matthew 24:15)

Anyway, here is the verse. IF the Church enters into ANY part of this last week, tell me, how we fit. Seeing as we still have nations around, we KNOW that the 7-year Tribulation has NOT yet begun.

“For I am with you,’ says the Lord, ‘to save you; Though I make a full end of all nations where I have scattered you, Yet I will not make a complete end of you. But I will correct you in justice, And will not let you go altogether unpunished.’”
Jeremiah 30:11

God is speaking to the nation of Israel (Jacob) here. The Church would not exist for another 600 years, so God is NOT speaking about the Church.

Furthermore, Daniel 9:24, confirms that the last week of years, is concerning the nation of Israel. Not spiritual Israel, not Hebrew Roots or SDA, but to the physical, ethnic, national Israel. He even confirms this by adding their capital Jerusalem.

The Church has no time, place, or purpose inside the 70th Week.

The blood bought, Christ redeemed church was paid for at Calvary, thus, we need no “punishment for correction.”

Prove me wrong.

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24 thoughts on “This verse proves the Rapture is BEFORE…

  1. Troy Day says:

    THANK You for allowing this discussion so very much I am glad I am NOT the only one believing pre-trib and seeing THIS verse proving it makes my ol theological heart rejoice Never-mind the opponents More DAILY theological discussions are coming Hope Philip Williams dont check out and is ready to defend his position

  2. Yes, Daniel is praying about the earthly city of Jerusalem and Temple. First seven years concern the rebuilding of the city under Nehemiah. After that, is 434 years (62 weeks) of no great prophetic significance until Jesus begins his ministry to Jerusalem. In the middle of the week, sacrifices are ended because replaced with the New Covenant of his blood.

    Jesus continues to minister inside the city through his Apostles until the stoning of Stephen at which time the church was driven out of Jerusalem. Because God is finished with this city, it is destroyed by the Prince that will come (Titus) immediately after the abomination that causes desolation. This was the murder of James the brother of Jesus who was interceding for the Jews until thrown off a wing of the Temple and clubbed to death. Even Jews attributed the destruction of Jerusalem to this.

    1. As I wrote, the 70 weeks concerns God’s use of the city and Temple which ends at the point that the believers are driven from meeting in the city at the stoning of Stephen.

      The destruction of the Temple and City follow(!) the 70 weeks and begin immediately with the abomination that causes desolation.

    2. Troy Day says:

      Dan 9 :27 is very clear. It says only one week or 7 yrs of terrible tribulation & immediately midway is the desecration of the temple by the antichrist. So, there is no gap at all, period ! There is a great difference btw the persecution from the wicked world & the coming 7-yr terrible tribulation with God’s wrath. Persecution of believers from the wicked has been foretold by Jesus & has been so even until now, but be of good cheer as He has already overcome & will comfort us in our persecution & end in the church rapture. In the case of the coming 7-yr terrible tribulation, which is for the unbelieving Jews is to fulfil Dan 9:27, when God will finally deal with Israel spiritually & end with the second return of Jesus on Mt of Olives to rule & reign the earth for 1,000 yrs.as an example, which also includes an answer to the hell OP today:- Matt 24:13 ‘But the one who endures to the end will be saved’. (ESV)
      Perhaps the most common understanding of this passage is that we must endure in good works to the end of our physical lives to be saved from hell.
      This understanding contradicts Paul’s words in Eph 2:8a: For by grace you have been saved through faith. (ESV)
      Notice two differences between Eph 2:8a and Matt 24:13: First, the Matt 24:13 salvation is by enduring whereas the Eph 2:8a salvation is by grace through faith.
      Second, the Matt 24:13 salvation is future (“will be saved,” from the Greek future tense, sothesetai) whereas the Eph 2:8a salvation is past (“have been saved,” from the Greek perfect tense sesosmenoi). Salvation from hell was by grace through faith and has already happened to me, so what is the future salvation by endurance that Jesus is talking about in Matt 24:13? The answer is in the context.
      Matthew 24:13 is part of an answer to the question that Jesus’ disciples asked earlier in the chapter: As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matt 24:3 ESV)
      It makes sense that the salvation in vs 13 should be in the future tense; after all, the disciples are asking about the future. Specifically, they were asking about the 7-year tribulation period. One reason we know that the Tribulation is in view is because Jesus says that the abomination of desolation (which Daniel talks about in Dan 9) will occur during this period. We also know that this is the tribulation because they asked immediately after Jesus said that not one stone of the temple would be left on another – surely a reference to the replacement of the 2nd temple with the temple that Ezekiel writes about in Ez 40-48.
      We already know that the salvation in question is not salvation from hell, so what is it a salvation from? In verse 22, Jesus indicates that salvation from physical death is in mind: And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. (ESV)
      When Jesus says, “He who endures to the end will be saved,” He does not mean that you must be good until you die to be saved from hell. He is talking about a specific group of people in the future who will need to endure to the end of the tribulation in order to be saved from physical death.
      Understanding Matt 24:13 is good news for several reasons. It’s good news to know that we don’t need to endure to the end of the Tribulation because we aren’t in the Tribulation. It’s also good news to know that we won’t even be in the Tribulation, in fact, this is the doctrine that Paul points to for us to encourage each other with.1 Perhaps most of all, it’s a relief to know that we can take Jesus at His word to give eternal life to whomever believes in Him for it:
      Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. (John 5:24 ESV)

    3. Troy Day instead of reading this though so many theological lenses (eisegesis), one should read it from the context of Daniel’s prayer, which concerns the shame of having a burned down Temple and Holy City. The Lord answers Daniel that he still has use for the city which he specifies. You are attributing to an unmentioned antiChrist what is in fact done by the Christ, the Anointed One.

  3. Troy Day says:

    Philip Williams IF your comment is on Dan 9 I believe you to be right At least up to the 42 and 69 week Now then you have a real problem with your hermeneutical chronology because your 70th week seems to be longer than all the 69 taken together Our brother James C. Morris has a wonderful book I was able to obtain for one of our classes. You can read in it how the church fathers view the 70 weeks and I believe their writings align with pre-Trib rapture perfectly

  4. Troy Day says:

    DANIEL 9:25 He will … try to change the set times and the laws

    The change of laws is somewhat understood but how is he going to change the SET TIMES? And are the laws in question related to set times and historic eras instead of legalities or civil systems?

    3 TETRADS TOWARD DANIEL’S 70TH WEEK

    What is the covenant of Daniel 9:27? I believe that it could be a revival of the Old Covenant that causes the jews to worship in the temple again with sacrifices and not necessarily a peace treaty of some sort.

  5. Martin Asare says:

    Troy Day
    When does God make a full end of the nations mean? That is what u have to ask? The entire OT says the nations will be judged and punished at the day of the lord and this is the full end of the nations . Joel 3:9-12,

    This day according Rev 6:12-17 is the 2nd coming also seen in Matt 24:29-30. It is the desolation which ends the 70th after the abominatiom as Dan 9: 26-27 says.

    Hence the text is promising Gods deliverance of his people who have been scattered/ dispersion from their inheritance for correction .

    This is why in Matt 24:29-31, at the 2nd coming the elect are gathered from the 4 corners of the earth, to which they have been scattered. And also in the 6th seal, the 144000 which represent the fullness of the elect of Israel are saved and gathered into the kingdom from the 4 corners before the wrath of God announced at the 2nd coming is poured out in the 7th seal.

    Notice in Matt 24 :29-31, the tribulation is made short because of the elect, and they are gathered at his 2nd coming which occurs immediately after the tribulation. Also in Rev 6, the 6th seal of christ 2nd coming in which they are gathered to salvation occurs after the 5th seal of final tribulation of the saints have occurred in 6:8-11.

    So clearly the text doesn’t affirm what u are teaching rather it says the remnant and the saints will go through the tribulaion and will be saved after it before the wrath of God is poured ulon the nation. This is why Rev 7 :9-17 shows the same fullness of Isreal in their true number as the innumerable sons of Isreal and Abraham. ( Rev 5:8-10, 22:4, Rev 14:1-5) Are said to have come out of the great tribulation into the kingdom of God indicating their salvation from the wrath of God announced.

    Again in Dan 7:21-27,11:30-37,12:1-10, the little horn of the beast WHO is also the king of the North wars and overcomes the saints killing,,plundering and arresting them for times time and half which is last half of the 70thweek .

    Rev 11:7-11, 13:7,8-15, 20:4 picking up on this says this is the killing of the 2 witnesses who represent the church as Christ’s faithful lampstands and witnesses to the world who preach repentance . They are killed for the 3.5 days which is the last half of the week and 42 months of the beast Rev 13:7,8-15,20:4, 11:7,. However they are resurrected and raptured up into heaven at the 6th trumpet in which christ 2nd coming is indicated by the loud shout from heaven, the great earthquake and their ascension into the cloud. ( 1 Thess 4:14-16).

    Again Dan 12:2 says this happens after the great tribulation. This accords with what we have seen so far. Hence all these show both the remnant of Isreal and the church are not rescued from the great tribulation under the beast. They are saved in the resurrection and rapture at the 2nd coming before christ pours our his wrath upon the nations. Hence the remnant of God in all the nations are delivered from the wrath of God while he destroys the wicked in judgment at the end of the 70th week..

    1. Troy Day says:

      a bit on your Joel reference, Sir Terms related to Rapture, Resurrection, and the Second Coming that must also be
      addressed include: the Day of the Lord, wrath of God, and the Tribulation. The Day of
      the Lord is an Old Testament term, which becomes contextualized by the eschatological
      writings in the New Testament. It is mentioned by the Prophets: Obadiah (Obad 15); Joel
      (Joel 1:15; 2:1-2, 10-11, 30-31; 3:14-16) Although the book of Jeremiah the
      prophet was completed only a generation be-
      fore the events described in Dn 9, Daniel already
      recognized it as Scripture, or the word of the
      lord. Jeremiah predicted that the desolations
      of Jerusalem would last for seventy years (Jr
      25:11-13; 29:10), so Daniel calculated that since
      the first captives had been taken to Babylon in
      605 BC, at this time, some 67 years later, the 70
      years were nearly complete.

      Israel’s Prophetic
      Destiny
      70 Weeks of Years
      70 x 7 = 490 Years
      (Dn 9:24-27)

      The word weeks in Hebrew refers to a unit of
      seven, or a heptad, with its meaning determined
      by the context. Sometimes it refers to a period of
      seven days but here it denotes a period of seven
      years. The reasons for this are (1) that in this
      context Daniel was concerned with years not
      days (9:2); (2) that in the Hebrew of Dn 10:2-3,
      Daniel specified that he was fasting for “three
      entire weeks” to distinguish from the weeks
      of years described in the previous paragraph
      (9:24-27); (3) that the broken covenant of the
      70th week leaves three and one-half periods of
      desolation and destruction, and this amount of
      time is described as three and one-half years in
      parallel passages (7:25; 12:7; Rv 12:14).

      The first part of the prophecy predicts
      that from a particular future starting point until
      the coming of the messiah the Prince, there
      would be 69 weeks of years. The Hebrew word
      mashiach (messiah) is commonly and accurately
      translated as “anointed.” It is used 39 times in
      the Hebrew Bible, generally with another noun,
      such as “the anointed priest.” The word also has
      a technical meaning, commonly translated as
      “the Messiah” and defined by W. H. Rose as “a
      future royal figure sent by God who will bring
      salvation to God’s people and the world and
      establish a kingdom characterized by features
      such as peace and justice” (W. H. Rose, “Messiah,”
      in Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch,
      edited by T. Desmond Alexander and David W.
      Baker [Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity, 2003],
      566). Although some believe that the term did
      not develop this technical meaning until after
      the close of the OT canon, this is not so. Besides
      its specialized usage here and in 9:26, there are
      at least 10 other OT passages that use the tech-
      nical term “Messiah” (1Sm 2:10, 35; 2Sm 22:51;
      23:1; Pss 2:2; 20:6; 28:8; 84:9; 89:51; Hab 3:13; see
      Michael Rydelnik, The Messianic Hope: Is the Old
      Testament Really Messianic? [Nashville: B&H
      Publishers, 2010], 2–3). Here the Messiah has
      the additional title, “the Prince.” The Hebrew
      word means “ruler” or “leader” and derives from
      the idea of “one who goes before.”
      Some have argued (Pate and Haines, Dooms-
      day Delusions, 73) that the word “anointed”
      cannot have a technical messianic sense in this
      context since it lacks the definite article. They
      have also maintained that the word “anointed”
      is more suitable for describing a priest (Lv 4:3).
      Furthermore, they assert that the word “prince”
      is also used of a priest (Neh 11:11; Jr 20:1). Thus,
      they conclude that this verse refers to Joshua,
      son of Jehozadak, the high priest after the
      captivity.
      However, in Hebrew, proper nouns, names,
      or titles such as “Anointed One” or “Messiah”
      need not have the article. Furthermore, the
      Hebrew word mashiach was not used of a high
      priest “beyond the Mosaic period and whenever
      it was used it was always clarified by juxtaposi-
      tion with the word ‘priest’” (J. Paul Tanner, “Is
      Daniel’s Seventy-Weeks Prophecy Messianic?
      Part 2” BibSac 166 [July–Sept 2009], 323)—
      like “the anointed priest.”

    1. Martin Asare says:

      Troy Day so this is how u disprove a position? Very funny. Well I don’t know about prewewth but the rapture occurs at the 2nd coming of christ after the final tribulation before the wrath of God is poured out upon sinners.
      This is why the rapture and final salvation of the church occurs in the 6th seal before the wrath of God and vengeance is poured out in the 7th seal. They are raptured in the 6th seal by christ 2nd coming, which occurs after the final tribulation of the 5th seal has occurred.

      This is also seen in Isa 26:17-21. It says Gods people suffering tribulation like woman in travail and awaiting deliverance and salvation will be resurrected and raptured before God’s indignation from heaven comes upon the earth. Hence they are resurrected and called to come up here into their rooms ( rapture) before the lords indignation comes upon the earth. However, their resurrection and raptureoccurs after they have suffered tribulation.

      Same is seen un the 6th trumpet. The church seen as the faithful witnesses of christ are killed in the great tribulation of the beast for 3.5days which us also the 42 months. ( Rev 13:7)This is the times, time half of the beast shattering kf the saints who wars and overcomes the saints. DAN 7:21-25 , 12:6-10. After the 3.5 days, if tribulation, they are resurrected and ascend in the cloud into heaven by the loud voice of christ from heaven at his coming on tbe day of the lord indicated by the great earth quake. This is followed by the wrath of God and judgment of the death seen in Rev 20:11-15. This is the wrath of God . Hence again the resurrection and rapture occurs after the tribulation but before the wrath of God is executed in the 7th trumpet.

  6. Erick Alfaro says:

    Excellent use of scripture and reason.

    By the end of the 7 year tribulation most of the population is dead. Every city is destroyed. Jerusalem remains. And Jesus comes to rescue Israel and destroys the remaing antichrist armies. The Holy City is saved, Zion remains forever. But many Jews have been punished and all unbelieving Israel has been slain. This is the time of Jacob’s trouble, not the church. The bride remains pure and has been remove 7 years prior.

  7. Troy Day says:

    The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a “translation or
    resurrection coming” (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord
    comes for His church, taking her to His Father’s house (John 14:3). On the
    other hand, Christ’s Second Advent with His saints (the Church=Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His
    Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences
    between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position,
    while other views are not able to comfortably account for such differences.
    Paul speaks of the Rapture as a “mystery” (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a
    truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus
    the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate
    event. The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old
    Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).
    The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet
    also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are
    different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the
    translation at the Rapture and Christ’s Second Coming to establish the
    kingdom.

    1. Troy Day says:

      Philip Williams the order of events in verse 3: the apostasy/departure first
      (per the previous study of the word in chapters 1 and 2 of this thesis and Paul’s placement of the
      term here in chapter 2, it probably refers to the departure of the Church at the Rapture,
      mentioned in verse 1 of the same chapter); then the revealing of the Antichrist; and then the Day
      of the Lord. Then, the mention of the “restrainer” in verses 6 and 7, who is restraining the
      appearance of the antichrist. Referring back to the discussion in chapter 2 of this thesis and based
      on all the commentary reviewed, and again Paul’s placement in the text, leads one to believe the
      “restrainer” is the Church (relating back to verse 3, which in turn relates back to verse 1—the
      Rapture of the Church). Then, verse 8 talks about the destruction of the Antichrist at the Second
      Coming of Christ. This is the second time the order is confirmed: restrainer Raptured; Antichrist
      appears; and Antichrist destroyed at the Second Coming.
      Whereas 1 Thessalonians 4 addresses the Rapture of both the resurrected dead in Christ
      and those Christians living at that time, 1 Corinthians 15 focuses on the resurrection aspect of the
      Rapture. Paul describes the change that takes place in the bodies of those who are asleep (or
      dead) in Christ at the time of the Rapture. As Rea states it in his thesis, “The resurrection of the
      just (Luke 14:14) or the first resurrection (Rev. 20:5, 6), seems to have two or more phases. The
      New Testament passage which most clearly delineates this order is 1 Corinthians 15:20-26.”1
      This can be further explained in the following manner, which is closely associated to the chart of
      differences between the Rapture and the Second Coming at the end of chapter 2. The resurrection
      in 1 Corinthians 15 is different than the resurrection in Revelation 20 for at least three reasons:
      (1) That there are different sets of people at each resurrection—the Church at the Rapture

  8. Troy Day says:

    Philip Williams not too sure WHAT your one liner responses recently have meant to be! I expected MUCH more from you given we have had this convo before with great success before you leaned SO heavily toward Catholicism. However, your current position does NOT change the BIBLE at all, so I will continue with the scholastic theme of these discussions as expressed in my intent to start them on Oct. 1 You can proceed with your 1-liners but meanwhile this on • Premillennialism and the Founding Fathers of Pentecost:

    The premillennial Second Coming of Christ was presumed basic to the founding fathers of Pentecost on both sides of the Atlantic. Even if it can be demonstrated that they based their declaration on emphasis and intent more than on exegesis there would have to be a very good reason to remove it from the AOG statement of faith. The premillennial return of Christ has been one of the major reasons behind the motivation for world mission and evangelism and even if it can be demonstrated that amillennialists can be just as motivated in missions the fact of the matter is that it is premillennial believers and not amillennialists who have been the motivating force in the present World Missionary movement. The Pentecostal movement worldwide and especially the Pentecostal Church in the Two-Thirds world is premillennial in its faith and in its understanding of the urgency that this implies to the task of world evangelisation. Overall statistics demonstrate that amillennialists are not as motivated in mission and are generally less concerned about the urgency of the task because time, from their perspective, appears to run on forever. Premillennialists believe in the urgency of the hour, or at least they used to even if they do not do so any longer in the West. Perhaps that is why a fair majority of the pastors in the AOG in Great Britain and Ireland, according to Robert Mountford’s statistics, no longer concern themselves in any meaningful way with the missionary task and are totally satisfied with local evangelism. A survey of the entire student body at Mattersey-Hall, and that includes those from a wide range of backgrounds and a variety of other denominations, indicated that the entire subject of eschatology is rarely taught in AOG churches. It can therefore be suggested without too much fear of contradiction that the link between the urgency of the hour in which we live as represented by a Premillennial Second Coming of Christ and the need for World Mission is not present in the thinking of the majority of the members in our AOG churches. The nonchalance is most troublesome as this was certainly not the position of early Pentecostals. It would not be an overstatement to say that premillennialism was, understood along with the equipping of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the driving force of mission and the AOG well into the 1960s.

  9. Troy Day says:

    The question under debate should be viewed not merely as a matter of indifference regarding the doctrine of Last Things, but one of the vital ingredients in a composite and holistic position which presents what we as Pentecostals stand for. Pentecostals are what they are not just because of their doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit even if their teaching on that subject is central to their identity. They are a passionate group of believers who, animated by their understanding of the reason for the person and work of the Holy Spirit, are driven to engage the world with a life-giving proposal made available only in the Gospel. There is a time factor which is crucial. The premillennial teaching regarding the timing of the Second Coming of Christ helps the believer to focus on the mandate of the Church and hold it in tension to a greater degree than does amillennial teaching. It appears that most of us are able to work more effectively and efficiently when we have frameworks that highlight the importance of deadlines which are constantly held before us. Premillennialism provides us with this framework and keeps us focused on the task before us.

    The moment the Pentecostal movement places in question the criteria upon which it was established it is likely that this is only indicative of a greater malaise because it has run out of momentum in its overall thrust. That is the reason why it is becoming increasingly introspective and less engaged in the matters that really matter. During the early days of its existence it had no concern with what we regard as Theological questions because it was taken up with ‘The task’. Pentecostals were doers of the truth and had little time for the theory behind their practice. The movement was too busy evangelising; it was at the forefront of mission. It was growing and it was not too concerned with the criticism of the non-Pentecostals. We have come of age. God help us if this is what maturity brings! It could be suggested that the subtle influences introduced by the Charismatics and the Evangelicals have far greater outcomes than in the area of eschatology.

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