Hello,
I am a Christian, but am still undecided as far as protestant and catholicism are concerned (I haven’t ever considered Eastern orthodoxy yet). The point of discussion which I find persuasive on the Catholic account is the problem of authority: who decides the correct interpretation on scripture, and who decided the canon – given that it was the ecumenical councils that decided which books were legitimately/illegitimately canonical. Thus, any confusion about doctrine is easily obviated by papal infallibility, which helps us avoid inter-denominational conflict.
If I accept papal infallibility, then I must accept any doctrine declared by the papal office. Thus I find the merits of the veneration of saints, purgatory etc a pointless debate until this one has been settled.
I’d appreciate any views on these points. Also, do you have any recommended readings on this topic?
“If I accept papal infallibility, then I must accept any doctrine declared by the papal office.” Exactly the problem. Scripture says to test everything, hold to what is good and flee from every appearance of evil. The ultimate authority is Jesus Christ, the Head of the Church. If a Pope says something contrary to Him (which has and still happens), are you willing to unapologetically and unquestionably accept what they say as factual, 100% truth or will you examine the Scriptures to be sure what they are saying is right like the Bereans did with Paul? Papal authority creates more problems than it settles.
As a Christian myself, I would recommend to study the Scriptures and pray. James 1:5 says if we lack wisdom, we should ask God. He will tell you what you should do.
ive always wondered how a fallible Person becomes an infallible Pope
Papal infallibility would not cover every single thing a pope says and whatever he says is not new public revelation since we Catholics believe public revelation was closed in the canon of scripture. The grace of God on the person who holds that office is to confirm the college of cardinals and bishops, and define when needed infallible interpretation of the divine revelation in the deposit of faith usually centered on the scriptures. When Pope Francis goes off on global warming I am able to shrug because it is nominally a part of faith and morals and not declared ex cathedra. That means where he says he is declaring something in an official context, and meant universally for belief and assent and is speaking from his office. Like the Jesus of Nazareth trilogy from Pope Benedict the VI. He maid a disclaimer that his writing in those books were his personal take on the gospels and not even to be taken as light magisterial teaching. As for us praying if we lack for wisdom that is a correct thing for any Christian to do whether they are Catholic or Protestant. But the magisterium which was established by Christ can give bumper rails on exegesis in certain vital points of interest. To be clear: Catholics can disagree on any declaration that is no ex cathedra and there have been many cases with some of them recent and notable where they were able to rebuke the pope. One of them was canonized a saint and declared a doctor of the Church.
I forgot to answer your request for related readings. I would recommend Upon This Rock by Steve Ray. He makes an excellent case for there to be OT and NT foundation for that office. Also Pope Fiction by Patrick Madrid. He makes a case for the correct understanding of what the papal function has been in history and how the personal failings of a pope does not undermine the office.
“papal infallibility” not such term used or taught in the scriptures. If we stay with and stick to what is taught and supported by scriptures we will not preach another gospel. Galatatians 1;7-8
There’s lots of good in Catholicism but papal infallibility is a dangerous idea. Try the amazing book “Turning Points” by Mark Noll. Gives a survey history of all the Christian strains you mentioned.
Roman Catholics don’t believe in justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. So in essence, they don’t believe the gospel. I would suggest reading Romans 3-8 and the whole book of Galatians.
Try looking into John Wycliffe, a Roman Catholic Priest among other things that challenged some of their practices and doctrine as well as stating that the Bible is authority not the pope. Of course he was fired and died somewhere around 1384. Some 30 years later they ordered his bones to be dug up and burned. Very interesting history. Then look into some books by Daniel Wallace or Craig Bloomberg. Hope it helps.
You forget Baptist we and not Protestant
Although I am not Eastern Orthodox I highly recommend anything by Fr. John Behr. He is also an amazing speaker you can find on YouTube.
Papal infallibility is ultimately about whether the visible Church can fall into error or not. The Pope, being the head of the visible Church, was always seen as the final court of appeals on discipline and even theology, and so he could commit the Church to doctrines. Fortescue’s book on the Early Papacy covers the history well.
In any case, the Pope had this role really early on. Ireneaus in the 2nd century mediated a conflict where the Pope was going to excommunicate Eastern churches over their date for Easter. Nobody said he didn’t have the right to do that, they just thought it was a bad idea. Likewise, Pope Leo asserted supreme authority in his time and people accepted it.
If the Pope can do that, then we have to ask if he can commit the Church to something false. If he can, we’d have to have a limited view of the Church’s indeffectability, which then leads to a bunch of problems.
If the visible Church can err, it could err on the Canon or Christology, which is absurd. Further, Protestantism asserts a doctrine of justification virtually unknown until the Refomation, which means either making false claims about Patristics, claiming that the visible Church can err on foundational issues, or that justification is not foundational. All three seem pretty impossible to me.
Salvation is relationship, not regulation. I have a document I put together from a book called the gospel according to Rome. There is a reason we are called protestants.
No council ” decided” which books were cannon… questionable books and letters began to appear so they had to differentiate between Scripture and other apocryphal writings. Everyone knew which were scripture…
read the bible , you don’t need no priest or bishop or any man to tell you how to interpret the scriptures, read it for yourself and i’m sure God will lead you to his truth .
First, Only Jesus can claim infallibility, the popes have many disagreements trough history, which means, both can be wrong but both can’t be right, having said that, the Bible doesn’t teach anything about a purgatory, it’s contradictory of the FINISHED WORK OF JESUS in the cross, it’s like saying: Jesus, you almost forgave my sin but not quite, I need further cleansing “, and regarding worship of images whatever they may be, read Exodus 20:1-5 where the first commandment was given to Moses, also, read Psalm 115, a beautiful read.
A word of advice, Jesus is coming soon to take his church, never mentioned denomination, just the ones washed by the Blood of Christ born again Christians as stated in John 3:3. Hope this is helpful to you. God bless you and guide you.
i was catholic for 26yrs & after reading the bible for yrs i realized we were doing a lot of things wrong, also do U believe that the communion bread & wine ? are actually physically the body & blood ? of christ ? cause catholics do
Being a Christian is not about what denomination it about a relationship with Christ, church building is where you go to fellowship and be nurtured in your faith by leaders who teach the whole council of Gods word it doesn’t matter the denomination or nondenominational the thing you look for is your relationship with Christ and the relationship the place you find to worship with other believers are in fellowship with Christ there are lot out here but if they are not teaching what you know that the bible says run 3 to definitely run from Catholicism, jehovah witnesses, there are others but to much typing, my advice is to pray study your bible trust the Lord to lead you to the right spirit filled church.
The Pope is just a man. He is not perfect, not is he infallible, and is no closer to God or have any more authority than any other Saved Christian
It wasn’t that the councils that “decided” the authority. Scripture has been authoritative from the beginning. The councils had to discern what was from God and protestants believe they did this through the guidance of the Holy Spirit and through very strict adherence to certain principles. But I would argue that God is powerful enough to accurately compile any book He wanted so we can be sure His message to us is faithfully preserved.
I think the main problem with Rome is their church interpretation is honoured above the bible authority but church interpretation is not fixed, it continues to change and if some change is unbiblical, you have to accept it wholesale.
Protestants are similar, but faster because there is no central church authority so anyone can start a new church with unbiblical teachings. But generally protestants want to keep to the bible, so generally bad teachings still will be supported by scripture, maybe just not the whole of scripture.
The term “papal infallibility” itself is already a big red flag. Nobody is righteous, only Christ alone. The pope and cardinals are also human, of course they are fallible. It is dangerous to believe they are not. One lie leads to another. I am a former Catholic myself. I became involved with idolatry, syncretism, and even forms of witchcraft because of my former Catholic faith.
Everybody can have the Holy Spirit, God gives liberally to all who ask – this is our true reliance, not on a man but on God Himself.
Among many things, the greatest err of Catholicism for me is hypocrisy (sorry to say it). The Council of Trent says they believe salvation is by grace through faith (as in Ephesians), but they practice a works-based religion instead. Their focus is shifted from what the Lord Jesus did for us towards man’s ability to save himself by deeds.
In your quest for uniformity, I pray you will prioritize the TRUTH instead. Catholicism fails to present a clear picture for salvation. And you also see that many Catholics only claim to have a uniform belief but practice many contradictory things. In Spanish-influenced countries, idolatry and many gods are very rampantly practiced within the Catholic faith.
Please study the reformation.
Many people know enough about the Roman Catholic Church Character to see that it only wants to feed itself, I will stay away from it.
If a reformation would not have happened, the Bible would still be kept in Latin hidden away with the wealthy and educated in the church.
But now every man is able to scripture in their hands.
Maybe you can clarify for us as to why you believe you are a Christian?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPG3vMeexks
Time did not give to us the Bible, and it teaches another Gospel!
Catholics are not Christian. If you look into why they call their priests “father” you will understand.
I am a former Catholic and like most people I inherited my religion. I got out 20 years ago when the pedophilia thing just became indefensible. Later on I learned the the true nature of its evil.
I used to be a Catholic myself until I studied the scriptures and found how drastically different the teachings of the bible was to the teachings of the church. I left shortly after.
If you believe that you are justified by faith alone, through grace alone, by Christ alone and hold the authority of the scriptures alone you are considered an anathema by the Catholic Church even though that is precisely what the bible teaches. That’s just the tip of the iceberg with the problems with the Catholic Church (and the Eastern Orthodox Church as well as they are pretty much similar with slight differences).
Tim Francis, Catholics have no God given authority, they have their own rules, laws and doctrines that oppose the Bible. Catholics aren’t Christians, they don’t believe the Biblical gospel.
I consider myself to be a Christian first and foremost. I was raised Catholic, and I continue Catholic traditions as a result of upbringing; but I do not believe the Pope to be the infallible word of God. I actually disagree with him from time to time. I also believe the catechism isn’t entirely correct – as an example, I believe the story of creation in Genesis to be a real historical event. The Catechism teaches that it is meant to be analogous- but it’s pretty clear when reading that it is meant to be interpreted as a historical event. Catholic teachings will ebb and flow along with scientific “discoveries”. If the word of God is infallible- then it must be unchanging. I would say to you that it doesn’t matter which Christian denomination you belong to – as long as your heart and soul is with the Gospel teachings and not with the word of man.
Catholicism teaches salvation by works, Christianity teaches salvation by grace. Very different.
Just read over the history of the Catholic Church from the crusades , invasion of the America’s to recent years of protecting pedophiles till this day ….if that doesn’t convince you that they’re part of the devils agenda , then read the word of God and see how many blasphemous doctrine the Catholic Church practice and how they never wanted for you to have a Bible or worship God .
Denomination labels are dogmatic
Calvinist-Puritan
The issue of authority was my big turning point in becoming Catholic. Listen to this lecture by Steve Ray explaining why we have the Papacy biblically.
https://youtu.be/faIB-sOBDKk
Who is the final authority on how to interpret scripture? It’s actually an easy answer: the Holy Spirit.
The Bible is God’s Word, and thus God must be the final interpreter of it. For man to be the final interpreter would put man in the place of God (this is one of the many examples of institutionalized idolatry in the Roman system).
It’s funny, in the time of muhammed, the RCC was the main game in town… Muhammed who was illiterate knew the “christians” worshipped a trinity and so in the quran he speaks out against the trinity in favor of a singular allah… In the quran, he speaks of the roman catholic trinity as being the father, jesus and mary…
An insightful question, Tim, because authority is, in many ways, the crux of the debate. I’m a convert to Catholicism, and this is one of the big issues that persuaded me. The biggest problem for Protestantism is justifying what authorities they do accept: namely scripture and ecumenical council decisions on doctrine (trinity, nature of Christ, etc.). To me, I never understood how you get a divinely inspired effect from a non-inspired cause. Plus the only thing we have record of Christ explicitly establishing is a church; nowhere does he commission his followers to write the New Testament.
I recommend you to read the book, “The Dark Side of Catholism”.
On a serious note it depends on what authority you hold to the scriptures. For example, Protestants call the canon of scripture a list of authoritative book. Catholics would call the canon an authoritative list of books. Basically the rcc holds command and authority over the Bible and how to interpret the Bible or add to the Bible through revelation from the pope and leadership. Protestants believe in sola scriptura, or Bible alone. They don’t hold to the catholic tradition or Mary or the aprocrapha which led to questionable doctrine such as purgatory.
I think you start with prayer, brother. God says if draw close to Him, He’ll draw close to you. May I recommend reading each day as well? Praying and reading one chapter a day, starting, say, in John, should take less than 15 minutes. I’ve had similar questions and choices, feel free to message me any time if you ever need some resources etc. Blessings, Keith
Forget the labels they’re meaningless and divisive Paul warned about the labels I’m a Christian I followed Jesus That’s just the way it is.
I’m not calvinist Baptist Presbyterian Catholic Eastern Orthodox Messianic Jew or anything else I follow Jesus that’s all I do.
read and study protestent theology. strongs is available in kindle for a dollar. I would get away from the historical churches they all believe baptism makes a person automatically a christian which is a false doctrine.
Here is a good video, for you to understand that RCC is pagan
https://youtu.be/PdsJs0UIm7s
Okay historically, yes it is true that the Catholic Church was responsible for the canon (at least the new Testament and Deuterocanonical books because the TaNaK was already established) and is the trackable source of Christianity but what they don’t talk about is how the Bishop of Rome decided to separate from the 4 other Bishops in the great schism. Secondly we have to remember that the tribes of Israel were the original vessels of God’s covenant (after Noah) and that didn’t excuse any of the idolatry and wicked practices. I see nowhere in the New Testament that Mary is to be prayed to as a queen. If that was the case that would have been something Paul would have mentioned at least briefly in his writings to the church. Papal infallibility is also debunked by Paul in Galatians when he mentioned correcting Peter (who is according to Catholic tradition the first Pope). Paul never mentioned to venerate Saints which I will repeat if it was essential to Theology Paul would not have left it out. I will say that there’s a lot of good that Catholicism teaches be careful not to blindly accept dogma. That leads to a bad place.
If you are looking for a church with authority there are other possibilities besides the Catholics. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints claims to be restored and lead by living prophets and apostles for example.
What Catholics don’t understand is the Word of the Lord is rich in meaning (within right context and Hermeneutics) and applicability. The Spirit reveals Himself in many ways to different people and it is amazing. But why would Christians expect them to understand this? They are busy being robotically controlled by one man.
Secondly, to limit the reading of Scripture according to one oragnization’s structure is to limit the Lord Himself.
God is sovereign and if He sovereignly wills one passage to have many amazing revelations from different angles then who are we to question that? 1 Cor 12:3-7
RCC, however, is very clearly Unbiblical.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MEDD-_9wbk
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