Is God just when He elects some people to give them grace and salvation but not others who are just equally sinful and spiritually dead and as a consequence will have to burn in hell for eternity instead?
Discussion
40 comments
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Very good post. I’m interested in the comments coming
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God has NOT elected some people to grace, while deciding others will go to Hell before their conception. That’s utterly absurd! Remember that God already knows the future. Therefore, He ALREADY KNOWS who is going to accept Him, and who is going to reject Him. Predestination is NOT Biblical doctrine, nor is the Tulip (5 points) of Calvinism. “Limited atonement” is a man made/false doctrine. There are many verses in Scripture that say salvation is available to EVERYONE, not just a few that God pre-selected. The most obvious verse to refute this false teaching, is John 3:16. “Whosoever” is NOT inclusive or pre-selected. Another verse that comes to mind right away, is Roman 6:10 “the death he (Jesus) died, he died to sin, once for ALL”. This Scripture CLEARLY teaches that salvation is available for ANYONE who wants it.
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Election is necessary because of the fall. If God did not consider the fall, then there’s no reason for him to elect. The fall means that no one is righteous, and God showing mercy on some and justice on others is his sovereign right. He is not obligated to show mercy to all because all deserved His wrath.
Yes! God is just for all the actions he makes.
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No. You just described a tyrant. The Bible teaches that God loves all people equally and that he is no respecter of persons. To teach that God chooses some for salvation and others for damnation is in direct opposition to the nature of God who is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance.
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For whatever it is worth, Alessio Bemelmans OP is an apologetics post wondering how God can be loving to mankind in the face of the combined teachings of individual election to salvation (calvinism) and eternally conscious torment in hell for the lost. If we focus on the first of these teachings (individual election to salvation), we end up rehashing Calvinism. Again. Ad Nauseum. But, if we focus on the 2nd teaching (Eternally conscious torment for the lost), then we introduce the concept of annihilation or at least something less than eternal, right? And this resolves the OP’s logical problem with the love of God, does it not?
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God doesn’t do the choosing ofr salvation, It’s the people who have to choose Jesus as saviour.
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Spot on Jason Holmes well written and answered with respect. Like you said God foreknew us doesn’t imply he controls us. Otherwise free will the cross and the promise of eternal life in him are mute. Also John is clear whosoever believes states choice, again in Romans if we confess with our mouth( God doesn’t open out mouth to speak we have to) I find many struggle with this because somewhere in their testimony is a loved one that they don’t know whether went to heaven or hell. It’s often an aspect of denial.
According to Tulip and reform theology my simple question is why am I still here and why is the world still struggling if we don’t have free choice and are already predestined.Thanks Jason
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No.
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You assume that human spirits can die because of your indoctrination. But they cannot. They are immortal. Think afresh for yourself. The lake of fire is not called the third death, is it?
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It is because of their hardness of heart that they don’t receive Christ not that God has rejected them. He wishes all to come to repentence
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When something is difficult to understand, always start from the premise that God is sovereign, God is just, God is love, and God is merciful. Remember, God knows far more about us than we know about ourselves.
If there’s a shortcoming in understand it will always be on our side.
I’m more amazed that God would consider me worth saving, knowing about myself what I do, even if I am predestined it’s still pretty amazing. ??? -
Think of the unrighteousness hypocrisy of the Judgement if there is no free will!
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Another scripture that came to my mind, that completely destroys the argument/false doctrines of predestination and limited atonement is 2nd Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, BUT THAT ALL SHOULD COME TO REPENTANCE”
This verse is LITERALLY SAYING that God doesn’t want ANYONE to perish (eternal damnation), so He’s patient, and gives EVERYONE time and chances to repent!
How can you Calvinists possibly read this verse and still believe in predestination and/or limited atonement?
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There is Doctrine of election and doctrine of Reprobation. God is not “fair” He is just. It s only through His mercy any of us are saved wr ALL deserve hell. God says “I will have mercy on who I will have mercy ” And He is Soverign.
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We all have the choice to reject him or submit. He may choose to favor whomever he wants as creator.
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Are you trying to advise God what to do?
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All who are saved are saved by God and all who go to hell and reject Christ reject Him because they have chosen too
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Yes. God is just in his mercy because Christ suffered the penalty for our sins.
Arminians have election too, the disagreement is on its conditionality. So in an Arminian framework the same question can be posed.
Christ is the answer to the question either way we understand things.
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Hey, Calvinists! That verse in Romans when God says he will have mercy on whom he will have mercy, ya know that one? He’s ACTUALLY talking about bringing gentiles into his family; not ONLY jews anymore. Please read that verse in its context, so that you can understand it. I agree that God is just, but what part of God “Is NOT WILLING that ANY should parish, BUT that ALL should COME TO REPENTANCE.” (2 Peter 3:9) do you not understand?
God’s sovereignty does NOT strip us of our free will.. ? That is completely and utterly absurd!
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Romans 9:11-23
[11]But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;
[12]he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”
[13]In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau.”
[14]Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
[15]For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
[16]So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
[17]For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
[18]So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
[19]Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
[20]No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
[21]When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
[22]In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
[23]He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. -
Yep. Satan is his name. He kill his elect at different times. Some he deal with then kill. Then others he kill immediately.
I don’t why people are including Jesus. The post isn’t about the living Word.
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the wheat are His the tares aren’t
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I support the idea of Mr. Chris Arevalo. What he has written is biblical.
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Romans 9
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We’re all given free will to choose. What purpose would our loving and just and holy God have in predestining men and women to Hell?
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I hold to what the apostles held to. In both views. That God elects and we have free will. I believe both positions. An excellent book on this subject by Norman L. Geisler.
https://www.amazon.ca/Chosen-But-Free-Balanced-Sovereignty/dp/0764208446/ref=dp_ob_image_bk
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God’s justice sends everyone to hell. You don’t want justice, you want mercy.
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Don’t just read Norman Giesler’s book … read all 4 books in this “series” by competing authors — RC Sprohl wrote Chosen By God, then Norman Geisler wrote Chosen But Free, then James White wrote The Potter’s Freedom (as a retort to NG), then Leighton Flowers wrote the Potter’s Promise (as a retort to JW).
I’m reading all 4. The Geisler one is too squishy to me. I’m on Potter’s Freedom now, which basically makes God’s sovereignty supreme. I had a lot of trouble with Calvinism, too, but JW’s book is fantastic. Like, he dismantles NG and takes oft-quoted biblical passages like “For God so loved the world…” and shows a completely valid way of looking at them “Calvinistically.” Worth a read. All of them, in fact, for different perspectives.
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1st in the series …
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2nd …
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3rd …
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4th …
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God came for the sinful with a plan to make them saints thru sinful men who earlier turned saints.
Given this truism, how must we judge one to burn to hell when this man has still a future to move into a repentance and conversion?
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I compare this to the selection of eggs. I had a mini farm when I was a kid. We knew what eggs were worth saving and what not by looking at the color , temperature and checking the weight. By doing so we selected them before they pop. The dark ones were death chickens and were thrown away the other ones were healthy future chickens. So we did selected them before they were born. In the same way the Father all knowing knows our final choice and select the ones who chose life to pour his graces over them. We did tried to save some cold eggs , some will make it and some will not. God will never stop trying but unfortunately many people will not follow him.
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Alessio Bemelmans God would certainly be un-just if that was what He does; but that is Calvinism and Calvinism is false.
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Hey, all were given grace. All were saved. Just many people dont want to accept it, dont believe it, even condemn it.
(Read this part as a robot so it would be fun ?)
The rule is simple: we are all sinners. Sinners go to hell. Thanks to Jesus we are saved from hell. Whoever believes in Him will not go to hell but will have a bonus eternal life.He is just. Sin is not His fault but our fault. There’s punishment to sin. Though He loves us so very much but because He is just and fair, He will not violate that. What did He do? He helped us solve that through Jesus. Man sinned so Man should fix the problem. God saw a plot hole to that. Jesus became Man and saved us. Problem solve. That is because of His love and grace. He did His part. Now its not His fault that others didnt do their part. ??♂️
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What is justice?
Justice is to reward everyone according to what he has done or what he deserves.
The entire humanity sinned against God. Therefore, entire human race deserves God’s wrath, curse and punishment for sin. “By nature we deserve God’s wrath.” Every descendant from Adam, justly deserves eternal punishment for they are borne sinners.What is it to save some men who deserve punishment for their sins?
It’s marcy or grace. “We are saved by His Grace.”
Therefore, we cannot accuse God for his mercy to save some descendants of Adam.ELECTION
What is wrong for God to excerse His right to choose? Everyone has right to choose. When men want to marry, they freely chose their partner. Democracy gives every citizen of any nation a right to choose their president. Every bird, chooses one tree among many trees to build its nest. There is nowhere a man is accused as unfair husband for leaving all other women of the world and marry a wife of his choice. We cannot accuse a bird for choosing mango tree and not an apple tree for its nest. So, why do we find it difficult or call it injustice or unfair when God decides to save some people of his choice and not me?
Why? -
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