Non-Catholic Christian friends (and only them, please), a question for you:
Around what year do you and/or your faith tradition hold/believe that the Catholic Church stopped being Christian or diverted in some way?
(This is an earnest question seeking understanding, but not to start arguments.)
Discussion
37 comments
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I’m a Follower of Christ! Jesus did not call you to be Catholic, Pentecostal, Baptist or any other Denomination. He called you to be Born Again…
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This is a heart issue for the individual. I believe that our Catholic brothers and sisters are still Christians, but I have genuine concern for their leadership structure.
I see the Catholic Church of today in much the same way that we see the sanhedrin in the book of John.
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Big question! The Catholic Church will have a different answer to me. There was no organisation called Catholic. It was simply folks following Jesus. Then a few hundred years of persecution was stopped when it became the chief religion of Rome. This was the beginning of the Catholic Church. It broke away from its Biblical roots and paganised itself in the process.
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When Constantine took over and made himself Pope. Notice that Constantine made this decision when he saw the number of Christians had blossomed to far too many to handle and that. His decision to stop persecution and make it a legally sanctioned religion was political in objective. Note also that he never renounced the title of Ceasar when he “converted”.his conversion was a sham otherwise he would have renounced the title for the Roman state’s god-king. And this was the recorded and tangible beginning of the hijacking of early Christianity and the rebirth of the Babylonian mystery religion shifted from pergamos to Rome. I think before then they were also beginning to let some heresies creep in, but I think having the head of the church held by a Pergamos torch bearer and a Roman pagan learned in the secrets of the occult must have had a lot of ramifications.
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Probably around the time they started selling tickets to heaven (yes, this actually happened.)
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When councils started using a hierarchical structure to force behavior in church leaders like forcing leaders to be celibate even though the New Testament expressly forbid that as “doctrines of devils” and prophesied false teachers would implement that. That’s about the time, and then Constantine made it a theocracy.
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When the church became a social entity with a secular emperor as the head of it.
True Christians did not follow it at that point.
AS an organized ‘church’ the Roman Cathollic Church never was Christian.
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This question may be double loaded. First, it’s just naturally loaded because to ask when the Catholic Church STOPPED being Christian doesn’t allow for the possibility that we think it never was. “Have you stopped spitting on homeless people yet?”
Second, it’s loaded because it implies, or gives leeway to, the Catholic Church’s claim to have been the first and only Church established by Christ and continued through Apostolic succession.
That being said, because of the way denominations develop, there is just no clear answer to when the Catholic Church stopped being Christian. Evidently, as Paul wrote to the Church in Rome (contradicting Irenaeus’ claim that he started it there with Peter), there was once a congregation there who received the word with all readiness and searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were so. I’m not entirely familiar with this area of history, as it’s been a long time since I studied the origins of the Catholic Church, but it seems over time, Roman bishops began claiming superiority over other bishops. While initially rejected, fastforward to 313 A.D., and you have the Edict of Milan, granting religious liberty throughout the Roman Empire, and specifically rolling back the persecution of Christians. Constantine went through a false conversion, claiming to be Christian, yet never truly renouncing his Roman pagan beliefs. Some pagan beliefs began merging with Roman paganism (the Bishop of Rome even took on the term “Pontifex Maximus”, which originally belonged to Roman Emperors), and the Catholic Church began blending like a toxic milkshake over the next few centuries. It continues to evolve even to this day (not to mention several schisms, which ironically further demolish their claims to historicity), and one might now legitimately ask, when did the Catholic Church cease to be Catholic?
At any rate, my simple answer would be that when the Catholic Church agrees with the word of God, it is right. When it disagrees on a “minor” point (i.e. wrong, but not condemningly so) they are wrong, but then all denominations have that problem somewhere. Where they disagree on a Gospel issue, let them be anathema (Galatians 1:8).
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No sooner than its inception corruption began.
It’s been that way from the beginning though.
Paul wrote about it.
Its nothing new.
We are at war. There is a spiritual battle and the enemy seeks to devour and destroy us. -
Very early (around 300) and continued to deviate more and more. But that doesn’t mean I don’t think that there are many Christians in the RCC or that protestant doctrine is 100%
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I think, reformation historians answer the question.
For example, when were the Marian doctrines started? Was there any, in the New Testament?
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Council of Trent when they anathematized anyone who believed in justification they faith alone.
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Apostolic Succession and Making the office of Pope of a “Christ type”. When they can get away with the claim of God’s power being passed only through an office (that Peter didn’t even hold) by using a verse out of context AND misinterpreted (that is not what Jesus was talking about in Matthew 16:15-18, He was talking about the statement Peter made) then they are setting themselves up to get away with anything. That is manipulation at it’s finest.
That being said, I believe there are Catholics who have seen through this mess and are truly born again and we will celebrate the Bridal supper together with them in eternity.
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When they began using statues as part of their worship, when they enforced priestly celibacy, when they denied justification by grace through faith, when they introduced purgatory. Whichever came first.
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Read the ” Desputation on the power and EFFICACY of INDULGENCEs”.
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This was presented to me by a Roman Catholic lady. Is this all that you believe?
https://www.facebook.com/100013371605887/posts/959015157887529/?d=n
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There is a Roman Catholic gentleman who tells me that we need to work towards perfection in our lives. Is that what you believe?
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I would say the “historical” or “patristic” churches started falling away in Paul’s own day, based on Galatians 1:6; 2 Tim 1:15 (not to mention all the problems mentioned in Rev 1-3). These provinces of churches started departed from salvation by faith apart from works, and began adding works to the condition of salvation…and that has continued till today in the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches.
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I believe it was a gradual slide (not as fast as the “Reformation” churches), beginning with when the church councils used their own authority rather than Scripture to condemn heresies.
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Their doctrine is not what i find in the bible.. every believer, for example is his own priest. We do not need in our session of a pope or a priest to communicate with God. In fact we are responsible for our own networks with God.
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Following.
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I’m going to “pick on” both Catholics and Protestants alike in my response, because I think as Protestants, we need to be a little reflective on our own failure in this area.
I think we just need to go back to the original Scriptures, with (a good translation, esv, nasb, somethin that’s not particular to one denomination or another, but is faithful to the original text), and hold everything to its light, whether it’s the Inception of the Papal States, or Christian nationalism, etc, and see where we deviate from the early church.
I think idolatry is the key concept here. There’s a problematic view we should avoid like the plague, that the church’s primary directive is to be in charge of money, power, land, government, and hold the view that this life is the best life. This, rather than what Scripture says (do not love the world or anything in it), is the biggest problem, imho.
Christ’s kingdom, His body of believers, they are made for another world, and another life.
Whether its the beginning of the “capital C” Catholic churches romance with Rome, or the many Protestant Christians today who ascribe to say, American Vision, dominionism theology, or even the NAR movement, people may disagree with me on some points, and that’s ok. But hear me out.
I think we underestimate how extremely creative Satan is in tempting us to worship idols. Anything anything anything besides proclaiming Christ crucified, and contributing to spread of the Gospel (which is the Salvation of our sins and eternity with God), anything else should be held very loosely or flat out renounced. What matters most a billion years from now, matters most now. People’s eternities are at stake.
I don’t see this loose grip on the things of the world to be compatible with what I see coming from money, power, and the worship and veneration of mere man, whether pope or a politician.
JMHO.
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The CC was never Christian, to begin with. A true Christian is not known for what religious association he belongs to, aka, the Catholic Church, but whether he is directly connected with the Lord through faith in Christ, providing of course that he is also indwelt with the Holy Spirit as a downpayment of his salvation (Eph. 1:13-14).
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Doing Romans 10:9a & 10:10b, due to believing 1 Corinthians 15:1-8, results in Romans 10:9b & 10:10a. Transubstantiation denies the efficacy of Christ’s salvific act on the cross. Therefore, anything after that heresy begun to deny Christ is certainly anti-Christian. The Catholic Church is heretical, but that doesn’t go for all Catholics – verbally confess Master Jesus due to belief that His actual death is the effective thing that itself actually saves all who do call on Him in belief. Then also get your righteousness by believing the Resurrection…
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Hi Tom.
Not sure when it started, but what is it with the pomp? All the different dress being worn.
On a more serious note. I believe it started derailing after the council of Rome 382.
When the tradition of succession from Peter (no evidence that he was ever in Rome) started.
There were just to many evil, and immoral Popes to think that either Jesus, Peter or Paul would want to be associated with them.
When did Maryan dogmas originate?
At the same time, Sola scriptura was thrown out in favor of tradion.
When was it decided that apart from the Pope and the RCC salvation is impossible!When did the CC become the RCC, an exclusive club, who persecuted Christians who believed in Sola Scriptura etc. etc
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No real time, it was an evolution into heresy…
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POWER CORRUPTS, ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTE.
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I don’t think we can know for sure.
History books aren’t always truthful. -
Early Councils such as the Council of Elvira, had prohibited pictures in churches, but their usage became widespread between 400 and 600 A.D. It was claimed that pictures of the martyrs would teach the illiterate to follow their good examples. In 717 A.D. Leo III, the Isaurian, acceded to the imperial throne and in 725 legislated against image-worship. His legislation was rejected in Rome by Gregory II as heretical. This action did not stop Leo and his successor Constantine V in their crusade against images . In 735 Constantine V summoned the Council of Heiria near Chalcedon, this resulted in a full condemnation of images by the 338 bishops present. Iconodules were accused of circumscribing the divinity of Christ and of confusing his two natures by the venration of pictures of Him. That is the ICONOCLASTIC CONTROVERSY. But sadly the widow of Theophilus, Theodora restored the use of icons on the first Sunday in Lent of 843. The theological significance of the controversy was threefold : it caused a dev’t of thinking about the use of icons and of sacramental theology of tht romam catholic church, it emphasized the importance of tradition in the RC , and ( in the west) it strenghtened the papacy. That was it ! The Church of God gradually metamorphosized into what it is now, the Roman Catholic Church .
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They were never christ like to begin with. 1st Timothy 4:3
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Thank God he added me to the church of christ Romans 16:16
And not a man made church cause man will put me out -
When will Catholic begin in which century? This is my question
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I believe when they started adding extra stuff we don’t see in the bible like praying to the saints and mother marry. And making higher orders be all holyer then thou. That’s far from Christ.
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The RCC became the present whore when it stopped using scripture as its standard of truth and started using men .
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I never believed they were.
The Catholic Church historically did not start with Simon Peter.It started hundreds of years later.
Emperor Constantine not a Christian started what later became The Catholic Church.
It was a union between some Christian Churches and Churches that pretended to be Christian.
In the cause of mergers like this the end result is a new Church denomination and it having more errors than before.
But in this case the some Christian Churches at some point ceased being Christian and believed what the other fake Churches they mergered with believed.
There was still Churches meeting in secret and they were being persecuted still under Constantine and for centuries longer. Even into the 1500s.
The Bible warns that there will be false teachers and their was many.
The Devil could not destory them with death and burning texts.
So he changed his strategy. Join his religions that seemed Christian and you will not be burned at the stake or eatting by lions or imprisoned or tortured.
Protestants were ex.Catholics that sought to reform Catholicism.
They started Lutherism and other things.
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When created by Roman Cesar Constantine.
Church is not religion! Church is Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. Church is us in Faith gathering together in worship and then going out and spreading His word to others, particularly non-believers.
Religion is human made, not God made. Faith is God made in Christ, delivered by the Holy Spirit!
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